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Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

by daalnnii
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Original Post

Is it just me or are things out of whack?

★ Guide

I’m a nearly day one player so been at it for a while as some of you know but things seem out of balance more than they’ve been in a long time. I’m bias to one side and you can find that in my previous posts but don’t want to skew the conversation. Any thoughts on balance?

Message 1 of 10 (1,258 Views)
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Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

Champion

I think, balance wise, we're sitting at a good place, there aren't really any cards anymore that make me sweat it when they get played.

 

Message 2 of 10 (1,218 Views)

Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

★ Guide

@daalnnii wrote:

I think, balance wise, we're sitting at a good place, there aren't really any cards anymore that make me sweat it when they get played.

 



Your feedback is one I always welcome. Maybe I’m just not doing it right at the moment. 

Message 3 of 10 (1,173 Views)

Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

Champion
@BigJimDenver thanks, and likewise! I have doubts that you're doing it wrong, chances are you're having a run of bad luck. What kind of deck are you running? I've found my best luck is with aggro since the last balance pass.
Message 4 of 10 (1,075 Views)

Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

★★★ Apprentice
I still have my complaints.

1. Zombies on tricks phase
2. Cards giving superpowers
3. More than 20 health
4. Intergalactic Warlord

Not in that order.
Message 5 of 10 (1,004 Views)

Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

[ Edited ]
Champion

@npgibbs would you consider these annoyances or imbalances?  Yes, they annoy me when they're played, but I've never considered any of those broken.  The strategies they promote aren't so overpowered that they're anywhere close to winning every game, even if they can seem "rule breaking."

Message 6 of 10 (972 Views)

Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

★★★ Apprentice
Being able to play zombies at the trick phase goes against the very design of the game and what they teach you in the tutorial. I honestly believe that since more people play as plants than zombies the game tries to strike a balance not in wins and losses but population distribution. Then they nerf.
Message 7 of 10 (959 Views)

Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

[ Edited ]
★★ Guide

I get you. I do. But I feel like in a strategy card game, rules are designed to be stretched. Every card digitally printed should fill its own niche, meaning nothing is strictly better than anything else, and every card should be and do something a little different.

 

Fundamentally, I don’t think the Teleport cards “break” the design of the game. The design simply, is:

 

1) Zombies play

2) Plants play

3) Zombies respond

4) Battle happens

 

Teleport just allows Zombie heroes to respond with Zombies, an ability unique (among Tricks) to the card Teleport, which makes it (the card) different and desirable.

 

If Teleport “Breaks the Rules,” what does that mean about Beam Me Up? Here is essentially a Zombie played in the trick phase. Is that not OK, either?

 

What about all of the various Zombie Superpowers that make Zombies. Are they also out?

 

Consider Brainana. To me, this is a bigger violation of the rules of the game than Teleport, because it breaks tenet #3. When Brainana is played, Zombies no longer get a chance to respond with anything.

 

Consider all the fusion cards that imbue characteristics. Lily Pad is by no means overpowered, but it grants Amphibious to a plant that didn’t have it. Does that break the design of the game?

 

Consider all forms of main phase (magic term) bonus attacking. These break tenet #4: Battle happens only after plants have played and zombies have responded.

 

Consider Pair Paradise, which grants Team Up to a plant that wasn’t allowed to have it (an extremely potent ability).

 

Consider Bullseye, which runs contrary to the Block Meter (or, the thing that makes PvZ so unique). Should we do away with that?

 

Consider Body-Gourd, which fills the block meter. Or Monkey Smuggler, which depletes it. How do these cards sit with you?

 

Consider a Seedling that transforms into a Brainana before the turn starts. This violates Tenet #1: Zombies Play. Does that mean all forms of Evolution are out?

 

Maybe certain rules seem more sacred than others... but which rules those are might be different for different people. Most of the stuff in the game stretches the definition of one rule or another.

 

I’m just sayin’.

 

Edit: I missed the most obvious thing, which is since the advent of Conjuring literally all Heroes, plant and zombie, have access to cards outside of their classes. That might be tenet #0 violated.

Message 8 of 10 (884 Views)

Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

★★★ Apprentice
Sorry I missed this one. I could address each point but I think it is more constructive to just debate the big picture but I do not have an issue with any of the cards you mentioned.

The sole reason why zombies go twice is because it is unfair if zombies did everything first and plants got to counter second and that was the end of the turn. So to balance it the game more or less split the zombie round into a zombie only turn and a trick only turn. It makes sense and it works. Teleport destroys this.

The award though for the most ridiculously designed card that is within the rules is intergalactic warlord. Buff every single card you have on the board and will ever own? Seriously.

Oh I forgot another mechanic - loops. I have no idea why the game thinks it is okay to have heartichoke loop and berry loop.
Message 9 of 10 (422 Views)

Re: Is it just me or are things out of whack?

★★ Guide

I could just as easily argue that it wasn’t fair that plants got to go second. After all, isn’t that why you think Teleport “breaks the game”? Teleport isn’t good because it lets you play earlier; it’s good because it lets you play later.

 

But hold on and wait a minute, because Teleport is not functionally the only card that lets you play Zombies during the trick phase (and not counting Beam Me Up and its ilk, which tend to be more resource-efficient than Zombies played after Teleport). Graveyard does it too, essentially, and is also in the same class as Smoke Bomb. In fact, both of these cards are more aggressive than Teleport, better in Aggro, and part of the same Turn 2 win combo.

 

Gravestones can be responded to, but there are not a lot of cards that do it... and there is so much built-in Trick hate (Black-Eyed Pea, Forget-Me-Nuts, Brainana, that three cost nut thing, DMD), that Teleport is not necessarily the safer option. Both Graveyard and Teleport can, for instance, get you a Trickster or a Zombot 2000 after plants have played (or a Kitchen Sink Zombie that can’t be squashed, et cetera).

 

I think you object to Teleport b/c it feels wrong and it can be powerful. But I think it’s essential b/c it enables control. That’s essentially what it is: a control card; a card that gives you more options at a higher cost. Trust me when I say that when I’m playing Aggro, I’d rather have a Nibble than a Teleport 90% of the time, especially if I’m staring down a field of Astro-Shrooms. More options aren’t more options if you can’t play them.

 

Warlord is also a weird card to single out. It’s only really good once again in a control v. control matchup. Turn 5 is kind of late in the game for Aggro... a straight pump trick or i.e. Going Viral seems much better if you’re trying to win in the early (or even mid)-game. I understand his effect feels wrong... and yet there is (increasing) precedent for cards that affect cards you haven’t yet played (i.e. when bananas were modified via update).

 

Overall, my personal feeling is that Bullseye was the one true mistake of PvZ, and most fundamentally changes the game. Tri-Carrotops can be absolutely brutal, QDCM is still a force of nature you need to respond to or lose, and they are both components of clinical Aggro decks that never allow you to draw superpowers.

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