Anyone who thinks Plants are balanced...

[daalnnii]

Lol whatever, man.  Attack the guy for using predictive text on his phone.  Whatever makes you feel superior since your arguments hold no weight.  If I felt you were worth proofing for, I would.

Education =\= intelligence.  

[daalnnii]

Btw, your use of ellipses is incorrect.  You need three instead of four.  But I guess you already knew that; being an educated man and all.

[npgibbs]

Thanks I forgot about Double Strike and Splash.

I would say instead of the attacks let us look at the plus minus of DS vs Frenzy:

Open Lane: Double Strike is the clear winner

Occupied Lane:Functionally the same

The clear caveat is DS cannot be improved like Frenzy can. I think in typical PvZ fashion double strike is better straight up while Frenzy can be boosted to become very powerful (deadly, strike thru). Iirc a bonus attack on a DS plant will only get you 1 attack while on a Frenzy you can get the effects if the plant dies?

[puntwothree]

I postulated that DS and Frenzy are comparable abilities in a lot of respects. I still believe this: of all the unique abilities plants and zombies have, these are (as far as I’m concerned, though I would be happy to be proven wrong) the most similar in function.

At face value (“in theory,” “in a vacuum,” what have you) I argued that DS is *almost* strictly better. Space Cowboy may be the exception that proves the rule.

You summed this much up well. :-)

Daalnnii would argue that you can’t ignore practice, i.e. the actual cards and what they do, and made the argument that “zombies with frenzy can attack three times in one lane” which is a “potential that plants can’t match.”

Sort of.

Potential is a tricky thing, for one because it could be argued on and on and on with example after anecdote after example.

It’s true that Zombies with frenzy can attack three times in one lane. It’s also true that Team Up plants affect a block meter as one plant. So DS team up plants can colllectively attack four times in one lane if bestowed with DS.

This may seem like a technicality, until you consider that Coffee Grounds is an easy way to bestow Double Strike, and  Vegitation Mutation is in the same class.

Ultimately, I think “in practice” zombies that actually have Frenzy can match or exceed the potential of plants that have DS. But I also think DS has more potential as an ability because it can be bestowed cheaply and can make decks lightning fast (because of increased face damage over Frenzy.) Captain C has many routes to a turn 3 win through Grounds.

[daalnnii]

1.  That was a nice analysis of the debate so far.

2.  You're absolutely right, Combustible can be devastating with the repeats if you don't have cards to deal with it.

That said, I urge you not to forget about going viral.  It can be an absolutely devastating card, for which there is no answer until the next turn.  

As far a CC repeat decks go...  There is twotwo ma weaknesses that can never be exploited by plants on frenzy:  Deadly & Gravestones.  They can ruin a double strike deck's day.  

But yeah, you say double strike is inherently better, which if we were only considering thet pros if the effect, iI would agree with you wholeheartedly.  I feel you have to consider the weaknesses when discussing which is better, which is why i  say you have to consider the other cards in the game to make that determination.  In doing so, I find them different, but equal.

[blinddouble]

Can always tell who lost the arguement/debate when someone starts resorting to correcting grammar

[npgibbs]

I think for the most part with plants what you see is what you get.

Double Strike cannot be made any better beyond increasing the strength of the attack.

Frenzy can be made better by making a Frenzied Zombie deadly or giving the lane strike through (or both). A lane with a team up plant in it facing a Frenzy zombie in a strike through lane that will kill both will make you cry.

Honestly I do not like or use DS cards. I much prefer Strike Through. Less reliance on a meat shield.

[puntwothree]

I don’t think Strikethrough enters this discussion.

Strikethrough is an ability both plants and zombies possess, and which both plants and zombies are able to bestow. Yes, it improves Frenzy. It also improves Double Strike. It may be that not many plant players mix the two abilities in the current meta. Nonetheless, it can be done. I’ve seen it happen. And it is exactly as effective as it sounds.

I’m not a particular fan of DS myself, but I do love it in my Party Thyme decks.

Just about every card in the game has multiple applications. What you see is almost never what you get, until you see what else you get and what that gets you.

[puntwothree]

@npgibbs I’m reading between the lines, and what I hear you saying is that Laser Base Alpha is good.

Correct.

There are a lot of bonkers environments out there that will win you the game in most cases if they stay in play long enough. 

There are even some that you only need to use for one turn. (Grapes of Wrath in the context of Cyclecap is better than Lase Base Alpha will ever be... though of course not strictly better.)

Here is something for you to consider, though. Laser is a sneaky card. Frenzy literally does not exist in sneaky class. (A sneaky hero has it, none of the class cards do.) So the interaction you’re touting is one that has to be very deliberately set up that way.

Frenzy + Laser Base should, at least in theory, be no easier or harder to fabricate than Double Strike + Sun Strike, or indead Strikethrough + Coffee Grounds.

Involving environments in the first place is dangerous in a way, because so many of them are absurdly abusable (even the common/uncommon ones, like Nebula and Flytrapplannet before they were nerfed.).

[npgibbs]

Strike Thru was an aside. I digressed.

As a plant player I believe it takes more skill to play Zombies because you have to properly distribute your strategy in a round between zombie phase and trick phase. Sure there are exceptions like pet decks and barrel rolling imp decks but if you want to take any zombie deck to the next level you have to properly manage your two phases.

Zombies has arguably the most creative (and destructive) combinations in the game. Making AoE Zombies deadly. Filling opponent's hand with max cards so they can't use block meter. Playing Zombies on trick turn.

Zombies > Plants  when the player is very skilled.