Mass Effect 4 Continued from where?

[Psychotps]

@MatriarchLiara

Ha! Not very likely. The choices you made in ME3 didn't even impact the ending of ME3. I'd seriously doubt it would have any effect whatsoever on any future games.

[mcsupersport]

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@holger1405 wrote:

@mcsupersport 

I know where you coming from mc, but I can think of at lest several easy solutions for the "Canon" ending problem and many people chose "Synthesis" as "there" ending, I don't like it either, but that does not mean that they who choose it choose wrong, it is a matter of opinion.
And they who control the narrative can also find a way to navigate around this problem, how good of an explanation it will be remains to be seen.

As for the endings, many things in Mass Effect were "Space Magic" before the ending, it was just not under scrutiny because people liked the "Space Magic" up to some point.

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My point about Synthesis ending isn't whether it is right or wrong, but more that it creates a situation that changes the fundamental fabric of the Universe.  Making every living thing and all AI and possibly all machines into Hybrid Organic Synthetic lifeforms isn't really compatible with a Destroy ending in 500 years.  You can more easily see a Destroy and Control being similar in say 1000 years, if you say Control Shepard "left" ,"deteriorated", or otherwise no longer around and Destroy, but to have the Synthesis ending accounted for is stretching it a bit.

Now as far as "space Magic" goes, yeah to a point, but Bioware took great pains to create an underlying system of "Science and reason" ,aka lore, for all the things that don't actually work quite like we know them to work now.  You had to suspend belief and accept the precepts of the Bioware ME Universe to enjoy the game, but they did create this system....then they blew it up for Green Synthesis and to a point Red Destroy.  The basic reason for the wave working to Synthesis was "advanced technology beyond human understanding...."  and Destroy for killing the Geth, was because we said so.  "Advanced Technology beyond Human Understanding...." as a reason is saying a space mage did it, and breaks the suspension of belief for many people, maybe it doesn't bother you, but to me it does.  At no point does Bioware ever create a system of science in the ME Universe that can explain how an energy wave can and meld organic and machines into a living stable item, create or alter the mass of the organism to create the missing side either organic or synthetic, do it across all the Universe, take but seconds to do it, and somehow use Shepard DNA to make it work, even on beings that don't in anyway share Human DNA.  This was pure because we said so, it s a cool ending, hand wave, just go with it.  Destroy killing the Geth was simply done to make it a harder decision and to heck with the lore of the last two games and all the things you learned about said Geth...THEY WERE SOFTWARE.... 

Now if you chose Synthesis, Control, or Destroy, you SHOULD NOT have your ending story overwritten simply because Bioware doesn't want to put in the work dealing with the Andromeda issue like they should have.  The endings Bioware chose to write, IF they stick to them, preclude continuing the story in any time close to the end of ME3 in the Milky Way Galaxy(excluding making multiple versions of the game and assets to cover the different endings).  In 50k years it could work, in 100k years it could work, but anything less to me doesn't if for no other reason than 600 years is half an Asari/Krogan lifetime, and thus no real change would occur in their Biology due to evolution.  The Salarians would change the most in that time, being that it is between 12-30 generations for them and similar to that for humans, but even then look back into our history, and see that we haven't changed physically all that much since the 1400s which would be a similar time scale what I am talking about, heck even going back 2000 years and humans haven't changed a massive amount physically. 

So maybe you wouldn't mind the hand wave to get a new Milky Way ME, but to me it would be the worst choice.  Yeah, I am probably in the minority in this thought, but that is how I feel.  What will Bioware do??  No clue, but Shepard is money in the bank, so if you ask me to guess, well........hand waving incoming....

[Psychotps]

@mcsupersport

Well, I agree with a lot of that.

You're right that the whole synthesis thing is a plot problem. But it's obvious to me that they didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. It seems they started with whatever this "dark energy" plot sequence was going to be and either ran into a plot... wall? Or realized implementing the plot would take more time than they were willing to invest and wanted a quick pay-out. So, they quickly chose a simpler, cheaper plot... even if it didn't make a whole lot of sense.

You're right. Synthesis? The god child? Really? They had to know that implementing such ludicrous story points would change the fundamental nature of the galaxy... but by that point it was too late. Changing it again would require a release-date delay and cost them money. And this IS EA after all.

If they're going to come out with a new Mass Effect game taking place after ME3 in the timeline, it'll likely be whatever is considered the proper canon choice. Destroy I believe it is.

So, unless the writers can come up with some clever method of dealing with it, the other methods, control, synthesis, and the refusal options will all be conveniently forgotten and ignored.

[mcsupersport]

@Psychotps Rumor mill was they had a major story leak near end of production and changed the endings after that. By rumor a couple of the bigwigs went into a room and hammered out the new endings and then went to the team and said make this now.
Don't know if that is true but it sounds like it could have happened, but then that is what makes the best tall tales too.

[Psychotps]

@mcsupersport

Lol! EA? Spending money to change the entire ending of the game just so they could release something the public didn't know about?

Even if the ending was still unfinished, it would still entail re-designing a major portion of the game to support it otherwise there would be holes all throughout the game.

Yeah, that is NOT what happened. That sounds more like a story they might have "leaked" to cover up the fact that they ran out of time. It's not like that's the first time nor the last time that's happened.

[holger1405]

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@mcsupersport wrote:

My point about Synthesis ending isn't whether it is right or wrong, but more that it creates a situation that changes the fundamental fabric of the Universe.  Making every living thing and all AI and possibly all machines into Hybrid Organic Synthetic lifeforms isn't really compatible with a Destroy ending in 500 years.  You can more easily see a Destroy and Control being similar in say 1000 years, if you say Control Shepard "left" ,"deteriorated", or otherwise no longer around and Destroy, but to have the Synthesis ending accounted for is stretching it a bit.

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         It still only needs a good story to change that.

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mcsupersport wrote:

Now as far as "space Magic" goes, yeah to a point, but Bioware took great pains to create an underlying system of "Science and reason" ,aka lore, for all the things that don't actually work quite like we know them to work now.  You had to suspend belief and accept the precepts of the Bioware ME Universe to enjoy the game, but they did create this...then they blew it up for Green Synthesis and to a point Red Destroy.  The basic reason for the wave working to Synthesis was "advanced technology beyond human understanding...."  and Destroy for killing the Geth, was because we said so.  "Advanced Technology beyond Human Understanding...." as a reason is saying a space mage did it, and breaks the suspension of belief for many people, maybe it doesn't bother you, but to me it does. 
At no point does Bioware ever create a system of science in the ME Universe that can explain how an energy wave can and meld organic and machines into a living stable item, create or alter the mass of the organism to create the missing side either organic or synthetic, do it across all the Universe, take but seconds to do it, and somehow use Shepard DNA to make it work, even on beings that don't in anyway share Human DNA

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They never explained how a human being could fall from space to the ground of a Planet (with an atmosphere.) but it was still enough left of her/him to get resurrect.

They never explained how a Thresher maw could be even remotely possible.

Omni tools, about any Tech ability...  I could go on for quite some time. 😉

As said, the space magic was fine, as long as people liked it. It was only brought up after many didn't liked the ending, as an argument against the ending, and only there.

It indeed never bothered me. There is Space magic in about any Sci-fi universe I ever encountered, it is just how things are.

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mcsupersport wrote:

This was pure because we said so, it s a cool ending, hand wave, just go with it.  Destroy killing the Geth was simply done to make it a harder decision and to heck with the lore of the last two games and all the things you learned about said Geth...THEY WERE SOFTWARE....

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 Of course it was, and it was a good decision imho.
 Having "Destroy" as the all around happy ending, after this storyline, would have been extremely boring and disappointing.

  For the Get, you learned about them if you decide to learn about them, it is not a giving.
  For many the Get are already gone in the final battle.  They still slaughtered the Quarians, the still helped Saren, they still supported the Reapers after Saren.

There are more than enough good reasons not to trust them, and also to sacrifice them.

For me that make the ending good, that you indeed have to sacrifice something.

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@mcsupersport wrote:

Now if you chose Synthesis, Control, or Destroy, you SHOULD NOT have your ending story overwritten simply because Bioware doesn't want to put in the work dealing with the Andromeda issue like they should have.  The endings Bioware chose to write, IF they stick to them, preclude continuing the story in any time close to the end of ME3 in the Milky Way Galaxy(excluding making multiple versions of the game and assets to cover the different endings).  In 50k years it could work, in 100k years it could work, but anything less to me doesn't if for no other reason than 600 years is half an Asari/Krogan lifetime, and thus no real change would occur in their Biology due to evolution.  The Salarians would change the most in that time, being that it is between 12-30 generations for them and similar to that for humans, but even then look back into our history, and see that we haven't changed physically all that much since the 1400s which would be a similar time scale what I am talking about, heck even going back 2000 years and humans haven't changed a massive amount physically. .

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Sorry MC, but you are manoeuvring yourself into a corner here
What you're basically saying is that Bioware should not change the players decision, but if they do, no matter how they do it, it will not work for you.

You set yourself up for disappointment, ME5 will never have a chance for you this way.

Andromeda was killed by the shitstorm, was it unfair? Yes, in my opinion it was, but it is how it is.
I can completely understand that they didn't wanted to risk more money and resources the way it was received.

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mcsupersport wrote:

So maybe you wouldn't mind the hand wave to get a new Milky Way ME, but to me it would be the worst choice.  Yeah, I am probably in the minority in this thought, but that is how I feel.  What will Bioware do??  No clue, but Shepard is money in the bank, so if you ask me to guess, well........hand waving incoming....

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This ship has already sailed, the Trailer clearly shows that we are going back to the Milky Way in some form.

I think it is the best decision they could have made after Andromeda.
And that they go back to the Milky Way, (The Andromeda shot at the beginning of the trailer was intentional as Michael Gamble said.) doesn't mean Andromeda is forgotten.

I hope they connect both galaxies and both storylines. 
That way the can give us a new story and anwser open questions about Andromeda. 

[mcsupersport]

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@holger1405 wrote:

      It still only needs a good story to change that.

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mcsupersport writes:

Depends on the definition of a good story, and I can debate you on that working.

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Holger1405 wrote:

They never explained how a human being could fall from space to the ground of a Planet (with an atmosphere.) but it was still enough left of her/him to get resurrect.

They never explained how a Thresher maw could be even remotely possible.

Omni tools, about any Tech ability...  I could go on for quite some time. 😉

As said, the space magic was fine, as long as people liked it. It was only brought up after many didn't liked the ending, as an argument against the ending, and only there.

It indeed never bothered me. There is Space magic in about any Sci-fi universe I ever encountered, it is just how things are.

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mcsupersport writes:

Humans falling...agree, and I didn't like it either, along but you could argue his armor.....

Thresher Maw wasn't explained, BUT it has been in all three main trilogy games, so it has a history, and we gamers have experience with them.

Omni Tools ARE explained, and there are lore info on them in the games explaining how they work and what you can do with them. 

Again, they mostly created the systems they used and then they broke them for the endings, you are ok with this, that if fine, but we both agree they broke their own rules.

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Holger1405 wrote:

 Of course it was, and it was a good decision imho.
 Having "Destroy" as the all around happy ending, after this storyline, would have been extremely boring and disappointing.

  For the Get, you learned about them if you decide to learn about them, it is not a giving.
  For many the Get are already gone in the final battle.  They still slaughtered the Quarians, the still helped Saren, they still supported the Reapers after Saren.

There are more than enough good reasons not to trust them, and also to sacrifice them.

For me that make the ending good, that you indeed have to sacrifice something.

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mcsupersport writes:

Not liking them is still not a reason to break the rules of story you created.  Geth only slaughtered the Quarians if the Quarians attacked them AGAIN, some supported the Reapers and Saren, and if they are already gone, then it doesn't matter if they are destroyed again....BUT Bioware should have created other losses instead of breaking their story rules.  To go along with Edi dying, maybe add longer repair times on the Mass effect gates, loss of more higher end computers, but something other than wiping software off servers but ONLY SOME software.  Geth were basic enough programs that they could live in Quarians life Suits, yet the red wave could pick them out of those same suits to kill them and leave the rest of the suit operating systems??

@holger1405 wrote:

Sorry MC, but you are manoeuvring yourself into a corner here
What you're basically saying is that Bioware should not change the players decision, but if they do, no matter how they do it, it will not work for you.

You set yourself up for disappointment, ME5 will never have a chance for you this way.

Andromeda was killed by the shitstorm, was it unfair? Yes, in my opinion it was, but it is how it is.
I can completely understand that they didn't wanted to risk more money and resources the way it was received.

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mcsupersport wrote;

Maybe, maybe not, but then I was extremely happy to see Andromeda because they showed they didn't want to overwrite the choices of people who played their game.  ME5 may well disappoint me, games have before, and will again.  It's not fatal, so I will get over it, and depending on the story, may or may not buy the game, again not fatal

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@holger1405 wrote:
This ship has already sailed, the Trailer clearly shows that we are going back to the Milky Way in some form.

I think it is the best decision they could have made after Andromeda.
And that they go back to the Milky Way, (The Andromeda shot at the beginning of the trailer was intentional as Michael Gamble said.) doesn't mean Andromeda is forgotten.

I hope they connect both galaxies and both storylines. 
That way the can give us a new story and anwser open questions about Andromeda. 

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mcsupersport writes:

We will now get to see what they do, personally, I hope they shed the Milky Way like a snakes dead skin......but as I said, if I had to guess, I expect lots of Hand Waving and Shepard.....

[mcsupersport]

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@Psychotps wrote:
@mcsupersport

Lol! EA? Spending money to change the entire ending of the game just so they could release something the public didn't know about?

Even if the ending was still unfinished, it would still entail re-designing a major portion of the game to support it otherwise there would be holes all throughout the game.

Yeah, that is NOT what happened. That sounds more like a story they might have "leaked" to cover up the fact that they ran out of time. It's not like that's the first time nor the last time that's happened.

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I think you are thinking of the Extended Cut endings, along with the Leviathan DLC, and not the original game and ending.  There wasn't anything other than the Catalyst throughout 99% of the original game, and then at the very end "POOF" here is Space Boy and your choices are Red Blue Green......it went about that fast, so no real rewrite needed, depending on when it all went down.  Literally, nowhere in the original game release was info on the endings other than the Catalyst and it has to be used to defeat the Reapers. 

The whole Leviathan DLC was created to explain the endings, and they delayed all this and created an Extended Cut endings to help sooth the outrage from players.  People were so outraged by the original endings they raised money and sent like 400 cupcakes in Red Blue and Green icing to Bioware offices.  The leaked endings were actually better than what we got in my opinion.

You may be exactly correct, and like I said, the best Tall Tales are things you want to be true and sound like they could be.....well I added the want part, lol....but it is true.

[Fred_vdp]

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@mcsupersport wrote:

@Psychotps Rumor mill was they had a major story leak near end of production and changed the endings after that. By rumor a couple of the bigwigs went into a room and hammered out the new endings and then went to the team and said make this now.
Don't know if that is true but it sounds like it could have happened, but then that is what makes the best tall tales too.

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Almost the entire script leaked, but I don't know if the leaks caused the rewrites. I think that part was fan speculation.

The story about lead writer Mac Walters and project lead Casey Hudson writing the ending without input from the other writers seems to be true. It originated from a post on the Penny Arcade from by writer Patrick Weekes (now the lead writer of Dragon Age).

https://gamerant.com/bioware-mass-effect-3-ending/

[Psychotps]

@Fred_vdp So, they tried to be clever? Held off even writing the ending until the very end to keep it secretive, thus not giving much time for the production of it... It makes me wonder how much "writing" experience they have if they left the actual writers out of it and came up with that... thing.