Liam..

[mcsupersport]

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@Nykara360 wrote:

I think what a lot fail to realize is the fact that the Pathfinder team arent actually under the Pathfinders orders per say. Its not an alliance military team its a civilian one. They are expected to assist the Pathfinder when asked but outside of that, they have their own asigned tasks to perform without having to run and ask permission to do it. They are supposed to just do it and then request back-up from the other team members when its needed.

Its a big difference to an alliance military ship and crew like the Normandy was. Even a big difference to the SR2 when all crew where specifically told to follow Shepards orders.

Each member of the Pathfinding team had a set job already assigned to them to just do when not required by the Pathfinder his/herself and there is the difference. Sara didn't have to contact her Dad to ask permission to scout once they landed on the planet she was just expected to do her job. 

Believe it or not, Liam was just doing his job, forging relationships with species and between colonies and used his own judgment on how best to achieve that. He also wasn't wrong, his instincts about those people were correct.  The pirates timing was just bad luck, one didn't have anything to do with the other he just thought it was possible, so went to his team for backup feeling it was needed at that point in time. In doing so he further cemented those alliances as well.

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@Nykara360

As others pointed out, you still have a chain of command even in civilian organizations, and while he has some latitude to do his job and IF it was alien diplomacy, he was still going around behind Ryder and using Ryder without letting them know what is going on.  Look at the difference in how Vetra and Liam handle misc odd side jobs of theirs.....Liam--Hey Ryder go scan this dude....dude starts to protest and maybe cause diplomatic issue....Liam says, Hey Ryder forget about it and come chill with me.....Sorry, I was just trying to steal info from them because I couldn't get them to show me, sorry, I don't think we are really in trouble.....  Now Vetra, she says, Hey Ryder, I am going to um, "conduct some business with Drack's help...umm, NO, you don't really want to know but don't worry, it's "legal" on Kadara. bye....  Now what is the main differences in these??  One, Vetra gives Ryder a deniability that Liam doesn't, two, Vetra uses the skills of the team to finesse the situation, and three she still tells Ryder basically what she is going to do, not details but general idea.

Liam should have told Ryder WHY the scan was necessary and risks BEFORE the scan, and could have had Vetra see if she could swing a deal.

The other things is Liam has training in police work and crisis response......NOT DIPLOMACY, and his job is Security NOT building bridges between cultures.  He has no listed training in doing what he was trying to do.  IT WASN'T HIS JOB.....he just saw a "problem" and he wanted to "fix it"  .........The PATHFINDER is the one responsible for first contact, and then after that, the NEXUS would take over diplomatic relations between the Angara and Nexus, not a fly by his pants ex-cop on an exploration team.......There are SO many things wrong with what he did, and the why he did it, that it's not even funny.  Personally, if I had a choice he would be let off either on the Nexus or Kadara permanently for gross negligence and stupidity.

[RaeLarkham]

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@rugster wrote:

Oh right, the guy I always sent to see that the nuke detonates.. never liked him.

Give me naked women anytime..actually, I sent Ashley the first time, then she died.. and I restarted.. and sent "kaiden".. sod that btw.. not having my gf die and be the hero.. you can't sleep with someones ashes.. well you could, but that'd get messy.  Definitely need a shower after a night like that..

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Okay I almost legit fell out of my chair at this. Pure gold. Kaidan is...ugh. I had him live because my FemShep needed some loving and I was curious to play out that particual romantic arc, but the whole thing was....strange. It didn't take much for him to gain interest but he sure ran hot and cold. I may let Ash live next time and have my Shep just be alone until her one and only Thane comes along.

Anywho, this thread is about Liam (not sure how it veered off into Miranda and everyone else but lol) but I didn't mind him actually. I remember when I first ventured back into fandom to see what folks thought about the game there was a neverending hate-a-thon for the guy because yeah he does some things that make you want to give him a good talking to but some folks act like he personally burned their house down. Yikes!  

I like him because I had a blast with him carving out my timeline. I went to romance him on my first playthrough but after his mission, my Sara didn't feel like they were compatible and kept him at a distance but soon grew closer to Jaal while Liam soon became her best bro after she eventually forgave him. Made my playthrough that much richer. I really liked the lead up and the little moments they had leading up to things and maybe some of my headcanon filled in some things in the aftermath, but it was the first time, I had so many emotions for a character while seeing different aspect of him. Romantic interest, shy puppy love, camaraderie clashing, hero worship on his part, an angry falling out, to an eventual best friend Sara and Jaal could count on. 

I know some folks are angry at him because of what they said to their respective love interest in the banter line but, honestly, i never experienced that because I mainly kept to Jaal and Liam while the others stayed more in the background for me. I actually prefer it that way because some of the others didn't really make a big of an impact on me though I enjoyed having them on my crew. I was hoping to get to know them more with future games and build that friendship.

Kind of a long essay but, those are my Liam thoughts lol.

[rugster]

Actually started playing with Liam as an escort.. more, since these threads and it seems we're not the only ones that hate liam.. all the rest of the team do as well, except maybe Kallo..

[lagruej]

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@rugster wrote:

Actually started playing with Liam as an escort.. more, since these threads and it seems we're not the only ones that hate liam.. all the rest of the team do as well, except maybe Kallo..

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Because he's just a bad character - you would have to force yourself to like him and purposely ignore all his flaws lol.... which OP does by putting blinds over their eyes "no haters allowed."  

Than again... I don't expect much from somebody who's avatar is Cassandra lol.... probably the most intolerant, and thereby intolerable character in Inquisition lol... Ashley Williams clone.  Seems OP feels some sort of connection to moronic and thick headed characters, for whatever reason.  Muh "I hate mages."

[rugster]

As I said before, I like Liam for his attitude to life.. just wish he could be customised abit more.  True of the entire team, first run through I only used Draak and Vetra the entire game after Eos.   Now I'll sometimes get Cora or Peebee to join in, Jaal on Voeld and Havarl, but for the most part, never Liam.    I have been using him abit on Eldaaren but not much, his skills.. aren't really useful.

[Nykara360]

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@lagruej wrote:

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@Nykara360 wrote:

I think what a lot fail to realize is the fact that the Pathfinder team arent actually under the Pathfinders orders per say. Its not an alliance military team its a civilian one.

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I'm pretty sure just like real life, this isn't valid.  A captain of a ship is still the captain, and they give the orders - just because civvy's volunteered doesn't change that - even on luxury cruises irl, if the Captain wants everybody in their cabins... well guess what... you're going to the cabin or you're getting arrested.  If you go on fishing boat, guess who's in charge?  Certainly not you because you're not military.  

I did service for 2 years in my nation's navy, and we had civilians aboard one of our battleships for a tour and it was made very clear they were to obey the Captain, and were given rules like not to photograph our tech.

Sorry to take your thread off topic again, I just thought that was a false statement to justify Liam going over pathfinder's head when he should have never done so... and don't even get me started on his savage behavior on Habitat 7 - even if we saved people in the end - his actions put people in danger or were poor representations of humanity as a whole.  Anyway, I'm not trying to bash - just sorting out an inconsistency with what you believe and what would be reality.  

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The Civilians on said ships are still allowed to do their own thing in off-duty times and don't have to run to the captain constantly for every little thing. They get up in the morning and go do their jobs, the only time they bother the Captain is if there is a problem with said job that they are unable to resolve on their own.

As for Liam's job, pulling people together to look out for each other for safety purposes is part of that. Just like its easier to keep a neighbourhood safe if there is a safety watch group. He may have been stepping beyond what was required of his day to day duties but, thats not a bad thing. Going above and beyond in any job is actually a good thing.

[Nykara360]

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@rugster wrote:

Actually started playing with Liam as an escort.. more, since these threads and it seems we're not the only ones that hate liam.. all the rest of the team do as well, except maybe Kallo..

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Liam and Jaal get along just fine.

Vetra starts whatever stiff happens betwewn them herself by going at Liam about his shields.

Its actually Liam who dislikes Peebee, not the other way around.

Cora and Liam are fine. They trade barbs at each other but most of their conversations are light natured even if they have different tastes outside of work.

[fudgietroll]

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@lagruej wrote:

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@rugster wrote:

Actually started playing with Liam as an escort.. more, since these threads and it seems we're not the only ones that hate liam.. all the rest of the team do as well, except maybe Kallo..

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Because he's just a bad character - you would have to force yourself to like him and purposely ignore all his flaws lol.... which OP does by putting blinds over their eyes "no haters allowed."  

Than again... I don't expect much from somebody who's avatar is Cassandra lol.... probably the most intolerant, and thereby intolerable character in Inquisition lol... Ashley Williams clone.  Seems OP feels some sort of connection to moronic and thick headed characters, for whatever reason.  Muh "I hate mages."

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Honestly, taking personal shots at someone is over the line.

Anyway, I actually liked Cassandra, despite the fact that the first time I meet her she tries to kill me. She has a nice combination of tough and sweet.

[PretzleMe]

I like how Liam was a doer.  A lot of people are scared to do and he isn't.

It's not that I don't understand why people are cautious (the consequences can be dire for making the wrong decision) but Liam is an outside the box thinker who is willing to take risks and rather than just complain about things, he was trying to do something about it.

If I could, I would have made him the Ambassador or whatever because he was already trying to bridge gaps without being given a title and his thinking on how to bridge those gaps was genius/brilliant sometimes.  Making sure everyone had a voice mattered to him from the start.  Building an understanding and healthy relationship between species already mattered to him and it mattered to him in a genuine way where he wasn't just trying to take advantage.  He wants all of us to get along together and as equals.

So I like Liam.

EDIT:

@fudgietroll

"...I didn't know that this was Liam's job. I got the impression he was supposed to handle security..."

Actually, according to the Pathfinder Field Team Manual, of which he is a part of said team, it is part of their job to

"...Establish diplomatic relations with local inhabitants..."

So Liam was taking initiative and doing his job on that front.

[VitesseLumiere]

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@PretzleMe wrote:

If I could, I would have made him the Ambassador...

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Not that you don't have some valid points in your post, but that statement just made me throw up in my mouth...  ugh...  wait...  here it comes again...