How to balance Gibraltar on both platforms! [ Edited ]

[ZeptikkHue]

@Anlbrd

And you keep saying they need to shrink him. Well, if that's your logic then you'd have to make sure every character is the same size. This is never going to happen so I don't understand why you are repeating this. You are basically arguing for all legends being similar which would make for a very uninteresting game. Reducing him to the size of Caustic would help, but it's a cop out and not in line with Respawns game mechanic design.

You have to count for the player model, you can't just count the hit box. A bigger model makes people able to pre-shoot you and it makes it harder for you to hide and you are easily spottet in the distance.

I don't really get why you are responding without at least one realistic balance suggestion. Also, the more I investigate and get feedback from console players, the more I am convinced he is quite underwhelming on console too. Your friend is good at the game because he is good at gaming and not because his main is Gibraltar..

[heme725]

I still feel that making all characters (except pathfinder) use their tactical faster would be enough of a buff. You can pull off some pretty cheeky tricks with his dome of protection at close range if you can get it out fast enough. Also how is Gibraltar an easy target at range? I'm sincerely curious since I feel practically invulnerable outside of close range. That dome of protection is no joke if the other team can't rush you down.

[Anlbrd]

@ZeptikkHue "Your friend is good at the game because he is good at gaming and not because his main is Gibraltar.."

And that's how it should be. If he was as underpowered as you're saying it wouldn't matter how good he was at the game, he'd be worse when playing Gibraltar and good when playing everyone else. This isn't happening.

Normalising the character sizes is a realistic solution. Nothing anyone else has suggested is actually a SOLUTION to the stated PROBLEM. They're just window dressing. Just attempts to make him equally unbalanced but in a positive way in another direction, to hopefully mitigate his lack of balance in a negative way in his size. That's not a solution to a clearly identified problem : it's a workaround. We've tried it (Fortified, buffing the shields health) and workarounds aren't working. The base issue remains for you guys.

[Anlbrd]

To be clear : I think the issue of him being easy to hit is MASSIVELY overstated, especially at the top level of gameplay.  To people at the top: as a general rule - most things are easy to hit, because they're all consistently good shots.  The logic of "why make it easier then" is sound, and it's why I would argue that they should all be approximately the same size, if not the same shape.

In UNRANKED play : the issue is more relevant, as the disadvantage means better players are far more likely to be hit by worse players than if they were a smaller target - which will really annoy anyone who makes a living by pubstomping in multiplayer games for spectators.

Look at the logic of how you've stated the problem.  I'll paraphrase and if my understanding of what you've said is wrong please tell me specifically where:

"On PC everyone aims for headshots, and it's easier to do with a mouse than a controller.  His shield doesn't cover his head so it isn't relevant in its current guise as a mitigating factor to him being easier to kill."

^ His head is the same size as everyone else's and he takes LESS damage in it.  If the problem is exactly as you've stated it : Gibraltar isn't actually at a disadvantage.  This means that either the problem is different to how you're explaining it or that it isn't actually a problem.  In either case : it needs to be re-examined or re-explained.

[ZeptikkHue]

@heme725

I agree with you on all points. What I meant was obviously when he is not using the Dome shield. And as you say it takes a while to activate it so in high skilled games you will often find yourself dead before it triggers or cools down if you run in the open.

[ZeptikkHue]

@Anlbrd wrote: "If he was as underpowered as you're saying it wouldn't matter how good he was at the game, he'd be worse when playing Gibraltar and good when playing everyone else. This isn't happening."

He is underpowered, but as I said, player skill is much more important than legend abilities since legends are not that powerful in this game. When I say Gibraltar is weak I mean compared to the other legends. Choosing Gibraltar does not make a good player into a bad player. I'm not going to be too certain when it comes to console, but if your friend was a PC player I guarantee you he would be even better after some time when switching to a different legend.

@Anlbrd wrote: "Normalising the character sizes is a realistic solution"

Again, normalizing character sizes is not a realistic solution since Respawn has never hinted that they will ever do so. I agree with you it would fix the problem, but it would be a bad way to fix it as it would hurt variety. Anyways, there is no point discussing something which most likely is not going to happen.

@Anlbrd wrote: "Just attempts to make him equally unbalanced but in a positive way in another direction, to hopefully mitigate his lack of balance in a negative way in his size"

Your logic is flawed or at least not in line with how all current legends work. You could apply this thinking to any legend as every one of them have some situations where they outshine the others. This game is not about having every legend being perfectly balanced in every situation, it's about playing into each legends strengths and weaknesses. Gibraltars weakness is his size, so he needs some great abilities to account for this huge weakness.

@Anlbrd wrote: "I think the issue of him being easy to hit is MASSIVELY overstated, especially at the top level of gameplay"

You are wrong. Even top players like Dizzy and Shroud does not hit perfect sprays most of the time. Well, except when playing against Gibraltar that is.

@Anlbrd wrote: "Gibraltar isn't actually at a disadvantage.  This means that either the problem is different to how you're explaining it or that it isn't actually a problem."

It may very well be in the way I explain it. English is not my primary language. I do however think you should start playing on PC before you try to educate hardcore PC players like myself about the game being balanced or not on my platform. Anyways I'll try again. His head is the largest head in the game although I agree it's not that much larger than the others, but this is not the main point. The main point is that his head is very easy to hit since Gibraltar is generally slower than the other legends since he has to ADS for quite a while before his shield pops up, meaning he can't dance in and out of ADS to dodge bullets with fancy moves. It is also soooo easy to track Gibraltar compared to the others because he is so big and visible on your monitor. Anyone who knows a bit about reaction times and aiming knows that the most important factor to reacting to your target is it's visibility. He is a slower and much more visible legend compared to the others. 15% damage reduction would be OP if every great player hit all of their shots at any legend, but this is not the case. Even the greatest aimers hit Gibraltar at least 25%-50% more than legends like Wraith and Pathfinder. Gibraltar is a total joke in high level PC games and if people play him at those levels it's usually just to check out new changes or do missions.

[Anlbrd]

@ZeptikkHueI started playing FPS on PC over 20 years ago. Unless Apex works entirely differently to any other FPS that has ever existed - we're speaking the same language, despite me not having had the chance to play it on PC much.  If we're going to balance both games the same way, then I'm as equipped as any PC player to talk about how.  Personally I reckon they should balance the games separately. I'm not trying to educate you about anything, that would be presumptuous - I'm just responding logically to what you're saying. Shroud not playing as Gibraltar may be indicative that there's a problem with him (it also may not) - it doesn't tell us what the problem is, so we have to figure it out. Assume nothing.

Gibraltar isn't any slower than any other character. He walks/runs/ADS at exactly the same speed. Peeking over rocks is exactly the same for him as anyone else, peeking round corners is exactly the same for him as Pathfinder, for instance, in terms of the model width. Your ideas about him getting hit before he peeks significantly earlier than anyone else etc have to be proven before I can talk seriously about them.

The way to test this would be to get two friends into the same lobby on separate squads. Stand Gibraltar with his face against a wall, stand a friend around the corner to his left. The friend has to aim at the space that Gibraltar is going to sidestep into - When Gib starts strafing into view they should both pre-fire and record what happens. Measure the time between Gib getting hit and the friend getting hit in milliseconds and repeat the experiment with another wide character (Pathfinder).

What would you guess the difference in those two times would be? My guess would be that it's the sort of amount of time that only someone like Shroud can complain about, as most of us don't have the reaction time where the difference matters.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one mate. You say that because Respawn haven't said they're going to normalise the characters that it isn't worth talking about. They haven't said they'll increase the size of his shield or anything else :S All suggestions should be assessed on merit, especially if there's a problem with the game which their current strategies aren't helping with after multiple revisions of buffs and amendments.

[Anlbrd]

Just to say : thanks again for a respectful discussion.   I've said my piece and I think we both understand each other but we're coming at it from different angles so there's probably nothing I can contribute further without some new info or ideas so I'll not add any more of my noise here

[ZeptikkHue]

@Anlbrd wrote: "I started playing FPS on PC over 20 years ago."

Sorry for assuming you were a console only player. Every game is different though, so I think you would find quickly enough that I am correct about Gibraltar being underwhelming on PC if you started playing on PC again. It's nearly impossible to theoretically think your way to the right answer. Reality is practically always a bit different than theory.

@Anlbrd wrote "Gibraltar isn't any slower than any other character. He walks/runs/ADS at exactly the same speed."

It seems as though you are not really reading what I am writing. Please read what I write first, then respond. We have discussed this before so you know that I know they have the same movement speed. If Gibraltar want to use his arm shield he can't move fast, because he has to ADS for quite a while before his shield appears. Maybe you don't know this, but there is a delay before it pops up so you can't jump in and out of ADS without a penalty, which motivates slow movement speed. He also needs to spend more time moving into cover than other legends since he has a bigger player model, and this makes hiding take more time for him which is one way of defining something as slow. So yes, if you want to use him as intended, meaning him using his arm shield, Gibraltar is slower, no doubt.

I've responded to all your arguments several times from different angles, but seems you are not reading what I write so you just end up repeating yourself and misinterpreting what I am saying. Thanks for the discussion though. Have a nice one!