March 2019
@TrueDivinorium What you wrote is the most accurate and compelling explanation of the TTK situation ive seen so far. Thanks!
I know the survey is simple. Its hard to handle too much complexity in a multiple choice survey.
March 2019 - last edited March 2019
@TrueDivinorium
In relation to the netcode i know this post is not about it i brought it up just say that it may be influencing our perspective on some things and that until polished somethings are harder to see clearly.
I have to agree with what you said ,that the TTK may not be the problem but rather the way weapons are that is messing stuff up ( i was´t looking at the issue comparatively to other BR's (this is the first one i sink my teeth in), still don't like to have to put a lot of bullets to kill a foe but i get why there is a necessity for it.(you mentioned PUBG camping i had a look into it and yes that is utter chit waiting for ever to see 1 person and fight for 3 seconds then its over.)
When i say TTK requires better player is in the sense that you can not have the luxury of missing shots so you have to be accurate , but yeah that also gives the frantic panicking player that sprays every where a certain edge i guess, but i see that its not this straight forward.
That said i dont really know how to feel about this TTK situation there is merit on both sides of this argument my conclusion is that would not like to be a respwan worker atm they must have a * tone of work 2 do :D , maybe respawn will have a to fiddle with it maybe ask us player's for patient and during a full week raise ttk and the next lower it to see players response. dunno its not an easy one i give you that (and thanks for a clear honest perspective on "the other side" of the issue.
March 2019 - last edited March 2019
"I will say again: a dude said he is SURE that the grenade hit for 100 damage and all the pellets of the shotgun hit, 6 times. I'm asking how much damage he saw, because that smells like * or player trying to snipe with a shotgun/ potato aiming 5 shots in a roll and putting the blame in the TTK."
The dude is a 31 year old lawyer, far from being a dude anymore but I suppose I am among dudes so I`ll let it pass. When I state something I state it based not on what I "perceive" but on what happened. Yes, I am sure of everything I said. You want the exact ammount of damage my 6 pellets inflicted on the enemy? At the moment I had "stacking damage" selected so I cannot remember the exact ammount but it was raining with 10+ damage from top to bottom. But again, it doesn`t matter because it is absurd just to have to justify so many shots and so much damage just to down a player. The conversation should end at "a grenade plus x". And remember, there are older "dudes" on the internet as well, no need to get triggered, not everybody is a kid or a teenager coming up with exaggerated claims.
"shorter TTK requires better players"
"That's utter *. because as i said before It changes where the focus of the skill are. "
It does require better players. As for examples, you can basically throw yourself at the enemy team because you know it takes so much to get downed and eventually killed, which I see happens a lot especially with Octane. You have Octane with Q activated running through a team thus getting focused while your two teammates pin down the enemy team. When I play Octane I die only if I find myself against more than 3 enemies. Otherwise it is pretty hard to die with Octane. Add purple armor or a legendary chest or helmet and you are invincible. What exactly is tactical about that? It is tactics nonetheless but just idiotic. This is the perfect example of why lower TTK would be perfect. Characters are fast, you can dodge quickly, smoke bombs, everything is alert, it`s not like it would be easier to aim.
Imagine wasting your time coming up with a surprise attack only to realise that it takes a ton of bullets to down or kill one guy so by the time you are finished with one team another one gets to join the fight or even more teams, it depends. So no surprise attacks, unless the enemy completely ignores you shooting them so the strategy becomes quite simple: wait for other teams to start fighting and pick up the easy kills or wait for most teams to get eliminated and join a fight at the very end, camping and looting. So I don`t think lower TTK is worse, or will make people camp, because it already happens but in another way and for different reasons. The game was made to be fun for everybody, and it is, but for those who want a bit more of a challenge, well, it falls short.
And it goes both ways by the way, I get downed and killed the same as the others, I don`t point out these things because I am not on par with the opposition, I just don`t find it challenging surviving that much after so much inflicted damage. I can basically stand still and shoot and still get the kill or not get killed.
March 2019 - last edited March 2019
Hey "Lawyer" post a video then; because i don't believe in anything you said. You are saying things that i don't see in my games, i don't see in streams i watch and the people i speak with don't say that it happens.
Like they say: extraordinary affirmations require extraordinary proofs.
And at this point you would need an entire day of streaming to back what you are saying.
March 2019
Nice, "Lawyer", I like that.
I don`t have the video of that particular moment because I don`t go around capturing everything in case I`ll have to "debate" something on the internet one day and well, you don`t have to believe me because I am not trying to convince you of something that doesn`t exist or is a fabulation and I don`t see how this is extraordinary by any means. Certainly there are videos on Youtube from which you can see for yourself that what I have shared on this forum is not a singular experience. And I have not at any point said that what took place is something out of the ordinary, it is just how the game is, so I really don`t understand what proof you need and of what. We do play the same game you know, it is not something that happened only to me, it is how the mechanics of the game are, period. Maybe you don`t care so much about this TTK therefore you don`t "see" anything wrong with it because you believe it belongs, so you dismiss any different experience a player might have as *. I just came here to share my opinion on the game, not to get into arguments over what I said is either true or not. That is up to you and I certainly don`t have to go to any lengths to prove anything that exists and is available for anyone to see. And it is beside the point anyway, we are talking about TTK, whether it is ok the way it is or not. Things sure escalate quickly over the internet.
Anyways, have a nice day and enjoy your Saturday!
March 2019 - last edited March 2019
That's the problem. I don't experience any of that. I will bring again your first example. I never seen someone take 800 of damage to kill in a single go. When it happens i gave they the chance to hit or i wasn't hitting the same person.
To be fair MAYBE you were shooting someone downed with a purple shield, that thing has 550 of health, but that would be a kill confirmation and that tab would be in you, not the game. It's easy enough to go around the shield.
You say how flanking isn't a thing and how much time it takes to kill someone, when it's not. At least not when the player knows hot to play.
That's what an average player looks like in a flank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6PmWeYvjqU
Also realize how in the second kill he was shooting the guy downed with the shield AND the guy alive, maybe that's what happened in your game and you don't realize.
About the "better player"
That's again you apparently not knowing what means to be a "better" player. Because as i said, it changes the focus of the game to Aim from positioning. And while it's true that it makes easier to jump in the middle of three and survive, it also makes harder to jump in the middle of tree and kill the three guys. Saying that lower TTK is better because it doesn't allow that kinda shows how little you know about "skills" involved in a FPS game. Again: it changes the weight of each skill, it doesn't make player X better or worse.
"surprise" attacks brings the advantage of being full health or even scoring a kill if you are good enough.(and you don't even need to be that good)
Surprise attacks allow you to win THAT encounter but the third party can happen if you do it or not, then the question turn into: You would rather fight the first encounter at advantage and try to fight the second or fight the first without advantage and try to fight the second either way.
Than go play PUBG and compare the camp there to the camp here. In Apex the camp only happens when there's 3 squads in the ring and more often than not it's broken when one squad spot other. That's because they don't want to suffer a "surprise" attack. Meanwhile in PUBG from the very first minute there will be people camping.
You keep bringing situations that are almost out of fairy tales; the dude taking 800 of damage to kill, people standing still and surviving; and argue that's common to occur, then argue that you weren't capturing at the time. If it's something common go in any game and it will happen again. Until then sorry but what you say sounds like someone that didn't even touch the game i play.
And I threw the "Lawyer" because you brought it out of nowhere as it was relevant to the discussion. Not sure if i was supposed to be impressed but it clearly didn't work.
March 2019 - last edited March 2019
I agree that Shorter ttk is not more skillful imo. Its the opposite. It becomes a more of a who shot first wins the fight scenario. I was upset when bfv removed lowered the ttk due to community demands, even though it increased my k/d lol.
I think it takes more skill to get hit first, turn around and defend yourself and gain the upper hand. I'm partial to games like quake and unreal. I played cs because it had a more sporting community and became more popular years later. But Quake is more of an actual fps e-sport as a game, imo.
March 2019
TTK seems a bit high when you have purple armor, but the REAL PROBLEM is with servers. Hit registration is by far the worst i have seen so far ( even worse that BF: Hardline!) and netcode is trash. What tick rate are servers running? Feels worse than playing CoD:BO4 BR on their 20hz servers lol.
March 2019
@FatSupra post *any* example video.. if they are so easy to find, you should easily be able to post or link one. If you're actually a lawyer, you should understand the burden of proof, and why a court doesn't just "believe you because you said it".
The R-99 flank and double-knock video posted by @TrueDivinorium is pretty much my experience.. Right now I'm on vacation away from my main machine, so I can't share any personal clips right now, but I can gladly do so later. (The only clip I've uploaded for friends is this fun 6 kills on dropship with triple-take, but most of them didn't have guns)
If I flank and land my bullets, the enemy goes down. When I first started playing, I didn't land enough bullet, so that was a problem... However, the better I get at actually landing most of the shots, the more reliably an enemy goes down. My favorite weapons for this are R-99 and Spitfire, though I've learned I have to be careful about getting too close and personal, lest I get 2HKed by a Peacekeeper to the face. That seems like weapon balance to me, not a problem. Peacekeeper has been more random for me, some games I land 85+ dmg shots and feel like superman, some games I wiff everything and curse the darn thing. Ditto for wingman.
March 2019
Again, that example is not the point of this discussion, I just brought it up, from all the scenarios I`ve been through (there are others as well), to showcase how much time or damage it takes to kill an enemy player. You don`t believe my example, fine, I don`t care and it doesn`t matter, but the damage or time it takes to kill an enemy doesn`t change, it`s still the same, which as I will state again, I find it to be high. That`s the point of this whole discussion. Simple as that really. This is not a debate, it is just me and my opinion and examples of why I think a lower TTK would fit better. I don`t try to convince you of anything, yet here you are "schooling me" with your knowledge of "tactical warfare" and FPS skills as if you are an authority on the subject and I have no clue of what I am talking about. If that`s how you stand by your beliefs and opinions, well...so be it.
"You say how flanking isn't a thing and how much time it takes to kill someone, when it's not. At least not when the player knows hot to play.
That's what an average player looks like in a flank."
I said the element of surprise in this game is not that much of a surprise, unless of course the enemy team is not very good. I never mentioned flanking or how flanking works or doesn`t work. I don`t know where you got that from. You are twisting the conversation to fit your narrative. That Youtube video just proves my point and it shows poor decision making from that team and how bad they were as players. If you do stumble upon enemies like those then yes, everything works, including surprise attacks. Plus, it took 54 bullets in total to get rid of those 2, not to mention the medic had no shields and neither did Wraith, so one R99 mag to down an enemy without shields and another mag for the actual killing (if it`s a white knockdown shield). That`s what I keep talking about but to no avail. You just found the example video you so wanted to see. It also proves what I said in my earlier post, that you find this TTK (well, not TTK per se but the amount of damage to be inflicted or the amount of armor one has) to be normal and beneficial, and you see it as it belongs in this game and doesn`t have to be changed. To me it`s just too much. This is what I saying all along, nothing else, and look where all this ended up.
"About the "better player"
That's again you apparently not knowing what means to be a "better" player. Because as i said, it changes the focus of the game to Aim from positioning. And while it's true that it makes easier to jump in the middle of three and survive, it also makes harder to jump in the middle of tree and kill the three guys. Saying that lower TTK is better because it doesn't allow that kinda shows how little you know about "skills" involved in a FPS game. Again: it changes the weight of each skill, it doesn't make player X better or worse."
I never said that lower TTK is better because it allows you or any other player to jump in the middle of 3 enemies in order to kill them. I am sorry but I really don`t see how you come up with all these conclusions after reading my post. And why would you jump in the middle of the enemy team to try and kill all three guys by yourself? Sorry, I don`t know what you were trying to say there. You keep talking about the focus of the game being shifted from positioning to aiming and how that is a good thing. Well, positioning is part of combat, the most important, be it at a large scale or small. It is more important to position yourself and take positional advantage. I mean logic dictates that you first position yourself in order to have a clear line of sight, to be able to aim more precisely and at the same time to make sure you don`t find yourself in a situation where you can get ambushed. Anybody can aim, some better, some worse, but knowing how to position yourself is not that simple. There are more variables to take into account when searching for tactical advantages through positioning. But we are already getting in this too deep for a videogame.
"surprise" attacks brings the advantage of being full health or even scoring a kill if you are good enough.(and you don't even need to be that good)
Surprise attacks allow you to win THAT encounter but the third party can happen if you do it or not, then the question turn into: You would rather fight the first encounter at advantage and try to fight the second or fight the first without advantage and try to fight the second either way."
Well, I don`t know which situation you usually find your enemies in after a surprise attack but most of my enemies choose to just run instantly or they shoot a few bullets and then run to recharge shields or heal and then again some shots, recharge, heal, or they try to flank. It is not like you can deploy surprise attack from very close, because they can hear you, they can see you if they know how to scout and not dive head first, they can use Bloodhound, etc. By the time someone actually dies more teams get to jump into the fight and usually the last one to the party gets to win which brings me to camping. I didn`t mean camping as literally sitting in a corner, I meant avoiding fights, that`s why I said it happens for different reasons and under a different form. You don`t have to literally just stand in a corner, you can also avoid a fight completely only to join at the end of the match or when others are fighting and just pick the easy kills. All this is a vicious cycle. It has nothing to do with skill or tactics, it is all rendered simple.
"Than go play PUBG and compare the camp there to the camp here. In Apex the camp only happens when there's 3 squads in the ring and more often than not it's broken when one squad spot other. That's because they don't want to suffer a "surprise" attack. Meanwhile in PUBG from the very first minute there will be people camping."
I never played PUBG and I don`t intend to, but I sense you have a problem with that particular game since you mentioned it a few times in a negative light. I wonder why. I`ve explained above what I meant by camping in Apex. I think the scenario you are describing with the last 3 teams takes place because they know it takes a while to down an entire squad and by the time they do so they might get pinned down by the other team. So they wait for the other teams to initiate the fight.
"You keep bringing situations that are almost out of fairy tales; the dude taking 800 of damage to kill, people standing still and surviving; and argue that's common to occur, then argue that you weren't capturing at the time. If it's something common go in any game and it will happen again. Until then sorry but what you say sounds like someone that didn't even touch the game i play."
I am a sucker for fairy tales what can I say. I don`t recall bringing up "situations", I think you are referring to my only example. People standing still and surviving? Where did that come from? You were probably referring to this > "I just don`t find it challenging surviving that much after so much inflicted damage. I can basically stand still and shoot and still get the kill or not get killed". I think after you read it again you`ll understand what I meant by that. I literally don`t have much energy left in me.
"And I threw the "Lawyer" because you brought it out of nowhere as it was relevant to the discussion. Not sure if i was supposed to be impressed but it clearly didn't work."
I don`t see why I would say I am a 31 lawyer to impress someone over the internet, especially a younger audience or videogamers. The problem nowadays is everybody is disrespectful, especially behind the keyboard. The point I was trying to make is that I am not a "dude". I haven`t studied my entire life and sacrificed so much to let anyone call me "dude" on a forum or anywhere else, plus my 31 years of age. I don`t take these things lightly. It may be ok for the younger generation or for people who care more about their Iphones but not me. No offense by the way, I am sure you are a lovely young man but the Internet sometimes makes us forget there is another human being on the other side of the keyboard, especially when we valiantly fight to defend our opinions.
@Kuro466 First of all it seems I have to keep repeating myself that my example is not the point of this discussion. I am not trying to convince anyone about anything. How exactly you lot came to that conclusion is beyond me. And yes I am an actual lawyer as hard as that might be to believe. Have the standards lowered so much nowadays? Is a lawyer that much big of a deal? I feel flattered. I see you brought the "burden of proof" into discussion. I suppose you know what it means because I am not gonna bring the "law" on a videogame forum as well, I've had enough of it on a daily basis. You got the court part partially right though so there`s that.
Have a nice day everybody!