December 2019
@RwFinfrock Sweats will never be a burden for me personally. Apex is a hardcore game, I adopted it because it delivers a lot of intensity over a short period of time. Also, when it will become unplayable or boring, I will move on, I'm not chained to the game forever. I spent over 800 hours playing Apex already, which is probably far greater than the average longevity they aimed for when making their plans.
For the game to survive longterm, Respawn needs to keep players in for a season or so, but more importantly, to hook as many new ones as possible in the first 2-10 hours. I think retention was heavily affected by the many highly skilled players bombing lobbies , so SBMM became mandatory.
SBMM also helps in circumventing the Dunning-Kruger Effect's "valley of despair", where most players feel like they're hitting a wall, losing confidence and then abandoning the game with frustration.
This "valley of despair" lies deep within what we consider the "average player" bracket in Apex. A lot of time is needed to level up your skills until you become confident again and only after getting there you can face the top tier of the game (the gurus). Also, after this point there's a much smaller chance of you leaving the game, as you've invested many hours of hard work to build skills that are great in Apex, but close to useless in many other games.
Respawn cares. They are trying hard to not split the playerbase even further with many different modes, maps or metas, so that your queue times are short and the pool for SBMM is as big as possible.
December 2019
December 2019
@WickXI wrote:@Flashshark1980dont forget that @fallenangel777 was just like you a few days ago, he loved the experience... i stopped playing , so another noob is being fed to preds..so you will see in time.
Why will anything change over time?
To me it seems like my rank in SBMM is reset or at least lowered every day!
When I start playing my session, I get my first #1 placement during the first 3 matches.
Then I feel there IS a little adjustment by SBMM and I get tougher oponents.
But thats no problem, for me.
My biggest problem are those over agressive teammates, going alone and running blindly into enmies.
Yes and the leavers of course...
I believe the rank in SBMM is calculated situational over the past 5/10 matches.
So if you have a bad evening, you get lowered and less hard oponents.
If you have a good day, you get tougher oponents...
That is why I wonder why some say they dont get out of that "hard enemy environment".
After some matches ther must be a reaction!
December 2019
SBMM has ruined my experience of this game in quick play. My account is level 54 and in tanked I'm only silver one (PC). I am a little bit better then the average player because I have played BRs for a long time and my game sense is better and I've been working on my aim for 5 years, how ever when I que into quick play lobbies I don't ever see anyone below level 150 or there is 3 pred squads and 7 diamond squads in my lobby. most games I cant land and cant live longer then 30 seconds because these guys are gods and well I'm not, that's for sure. other games I land out far and play slow but then get into my first fight and its a pred squad that lasers me and I'm down in the blink of an eye. I have never made a smurf account but, In the end I uninstalled apex and probably wont reinstall it until this is addressed because this is actually killing the game and I noticed it today when it took 10 minutes to get in to a "casual" game (quick play)
my suggestion is maybe give the new players till account level 20 or 30 to give some experience and time to learn the basics but then after that its time to put the big pants on and get group with the first 60 people.
December 2019 - last edited December 2019
@FlynmonkypooTTVI think thats a decent idea or give to level 100 as others have said but I think maybe til level 50, but i feel like people would make smurf accounts to pick on the noobs, but they currently can with SBMM so it wouldn’t be any different I guess I didn’t have the experience to play til level 50 with only noobs when I started apex but I still enjoyed the game and learned the basics, so I think to player level 50 should be a good number to stop SBMM and keep SBMM a thing for players level 50 and under
this way the lobbys can have all skill levels instead of your level or higher... it defeats both the purpose of ranked and playing the game in general also gives level 50 players from level 50 to 100 to play with better skilled or even pro players to learn how to play the game better than they probally did in the first 50 levels only doing the basics
December 2019
@Littumulkero wrote:This is really something. Thanks for JiboTV for clearly stating your thoughts. I have read all your comments/replies. It seems to me that you are really putting effort to this and you would like to see the whole player base to be happy and enjoyin this great game.
Many other comments are also having good points and they point out how player feel and how things have evolved.
I am a gutter tier player. This is the first and only FPS and also battle royal game that I have ever played online. I have slowly but steadily gotten better (this might be actually happening since all my stats have gone up a bit from s1 to s3).
This matchmaking have been positive change my gaming experience when I solo que. Not sure but perhaps it's because I played not so great when starting this game therefore my stats what I have don't match my skills anymore. Don't know does this sound really stupid but I can really see and feel the difference compared to previous seasons.
When I play solo que now I will get to top 5 so often it is starting to feel..well odd. Even more staggering to me is this kill leader status that I have gained in multiple games in this season!! Freakin cool! In season 1 and 2 this was rare as eclipse of the sun.
The point that I am after is that we can definetly have a game wich includes mainly good gaming exprerience for everyone. This feat need to be accomplished tough and I think EA Respawn is trying to do so. These post here might give some insight to their devs what we gamers think about the current meta and state of the game. And surely if posts are like this something can really happen. This thread is actually worth reading.
"Imagine if we were all ranked by numbers ranging from 1-100, players rank 30 or below would be matched to players of a similar skill level, but once you reach any ranking above 30, you would match with anyone within the range of ranks 31-100." This sounds pretty solid solution to this matchmaking. I think other optimal solution is just go full random in QM. Just ignore all the stats, premades or like so..then we have true QM =). There would definetly be pub stomps but then again you could avoid them by moving to ranked play where you meet up teams with equal skill of yours. Or perhaps you solo que and get lucky and there is 2 predators in your side and you can experience masterclass play in your own game!
Thanks for your post and time ones more!
A bit off topic : I personally think ranked play could be changed. I am having friends that are so much better players compared to me and it is really no point for me to play with them. If I am not totally wrong now the ranked goes like following --> You are bronze and you team mate is ranked higher you go with the higher rank. Right? I would build the ranked mode so that you could team up with predator if you like but then this player would have massive handicap placed upon him like loadout with white shield and p2020 and mozambik ( but no penalties or danger dropping in ranks). Would it be fun to see how much more help you need to get to down these players?
No problem, my intent was a discussion. And helping players understand their own thoughts on matchmaking is just as important as me explaining mine. I am glad you are doing well in your games. My concerns lay within the idea that as you keep getting those top 5's, getting higher kills, and so on, you will be placed in a higher tier of SBMM. There are a few issues with this as I mentioned before, but I'll just go with the fact that the higher tier of SBMM you go into, the less mistakes you can make. I'm glad you read all my other responses, but I might still reference some here because they contain important points. At certain SBMM rankings, you can take something as simple or benign as running out in the open for a few seconds, and it turns out to be a misplay at higher rankings that results in you dying or losing members of your team - Which is or is effectively losing the game. The standard for players who do well only increases with the current SBMM model. Having increasingly high standards of players usually results in people feeling dissatisfied the better they get. I think I have a grasp of what Respawn wants to do with their SBMM, which is why I made my recommendation hoping it would be inline with their ideals and goals. Let's not have high standards for doing well in casual matches - Let's focus on those who do not do so well, encourage them by giving them lower tier SBMM lobbies or even offering a better training experience. If that's the goal, this should give them time to attach to the game, develop skills, spend money, have a chance at winning, generally enjoy themselves without being beaten by an average to above average player. But a big point in my discussing this is that a part of me does feel that the current system is compromising a fundamental part of what made Apex Legends a good BR. I did not think completely random casual matches were a detriment to the game, and I think random casual games would be even better now with how this new map is designed. Oh - Also a little off of what I have been talking about but still relevant - Queue times are a bit longer for me and other players around my skill level. It feels like Respawn is trying to address that issue though and I'm pretty patient, so that's why I have not brought it up until now.
Haha, I'm not sure if that would be the best. The disparity between predator and say silver is pretty huge and I'm not sure how the ranked MMR system would handle that. If I fought an enemy team with two silvers and a predator and I had the same, the silvers would probably be more fodder than of help. But an interesting idea is allowing people to duo-queue or solo-queue into games without a full team. Respawn may not want that though, because it might go against the ideals of this being more of a three-man team game.
Thanks for your response and thoughts on the matter of SBMM.
December 2019
@Littumulkero wrote:This is really something. Thanks for JiboTV for clearly stating your thoughts. I have read all your comments/replies. It seems to me that you are really putting effort to this and you would like to see the whole player base to be happy and enjoyin this great game.
Many other comments are also having good points and they point out how player feel and how things have evolved.
I am a gutter tier player. This is the first and only FPS and also battle royal game that I have ever played online. I have slowly but steadily gotten better (this might be actually happening since all my stats have gone up a bit from s1 to s3).
This matchmaking have been positive change my gaming experience when I solo que. Not sure but perhaps it's because I played not so great when starting this game therefore my stats what I have don't match my skills anymore. Don't know does this sound really stupid but I can really see and feel the difference compared to previous seasons.
When I play solo que now I will get to top 5 so often it is starting to feel..well odd. Even more staggering to me is this kill leader status that I have gained in multiple games in this season!! Freakin cool! In season 1 and 2 this was rare as eclipse of the sun.
The point that I am after is that we can definetly have a game wich includes mainly good gaming exprerience for everyone. This feat need to be accomplished tough and I think EA Respawn is trying to do so. These post here might give some insight to their devs what we gamers think about the current meta and state of the game. And surely if posts are like this something can really happen. This thread is actually worth reading.
"Imagine if we were all ranked by numbers ranging from 1-100, players rank 30 or below would be matched to players of a similar skill level, but once you reach any ranking above 30, you would match with anyone within the range of ranks 31-100." This sounds pretty solid solution to this matchmaking. I think other optimal solution is just go full random in QM. Just ignore all the stats, premades or like so..then we have true QM =). There would definitely be pub stomps but then again you could avoid them by moving to ranked play where you meet up teams with equal skill of yours. Or perhaps you solo que and get lucky and there is 2 predators in your side and you can experience masterclass play in your own game!
Thanks for your post and time ones more!
A bit off topic : I personally think ranked play could be changed. I am having friends that are so much better players compared to me and it is really no point for me to play with them. If I am not totally wrong now the ranked goes like following --> You are bronze and you team mate is ranked higher you go with the higher rank. Right? I would build the ranked mode so that you could team up with predator if you like but then this player would have massive handicap placed upon him like loadout with white shield and p2020 and mozambik ( but no penalties or danger dropping in ranks). Would it be fun to see how much more help you need to get to down these players?
No problem, my intent was a discussion. And helping players understand their own thoughts on matchmaking is just as important as me explaining mine. I am glad you are doing well in your games. My concerns lay within the idea that as you keep getting those top 5's, getting higher kills, and so on, you will be placed in a higher tier of SBMM. There are a few issues with this as I mentioned before, but I'll just go with the fact that the higher tier of SBMM you go into, the less mistakes you can make. I'm glad you read all my other responses, but I might still reference some here because they contain important points. At certain SBMM rankings, you can take something as simple or benign as running out in the open for a few seconds, and it turns out to be a misplay at higher rankings that results in you dying or losing members of your team - Which is or is effectively losing the game. The standard for players who do well only increases with the current SBMM model. Having increasingly high standards of players usually results in people feeling dissatisfied the better they get. I think I have a grasp of what Respawn wants to do with their SBMM, which is why I made my recommendation hoping it would be inline with their ideals and goals. Let's not have high standards for doing well in casual matches - Let's focus on those who do not do so well, encourage them by giving them lower tier SBMM lobbies or even offering a better training experience. If that's the goal, this should give them time to attach to the game, develop skills, spend money, have a chance at winning, generally enjoy themselves without being beaten by an average to above average player. But a big point in my discussing this is that a part of me does feel that the current system is compromising a fundamental part of what made Apex Legends a good BR. I did not think completely random casual matches were a detriment to the game, and I think random casual games would be even better now with how this new map is designed. Oh - Also a little off of what I have been talking about but still relevant - Queue times are a bit longer for me and other players around my skill level. It feels like Respawn is trying to address that issue though and I'm pretty patient, so that's why I have not brought it up until now.
Haha, I'm not sure if that would be the best. The disparity between predator and say silver is pretty huge and I'm not sure how the ranked MMR system would handle that. If I fought an enemy team with two silvers and a predator and I had the same, the silvers would probably be more fodder than of help. But an interesting idea is allowing people to duo-queue or solo-queue into games without a full team. Respawn may not want that though, because it might go against the ideals of this being more of a three-man team game.
Thanks for your response and thoughts on the matter of SBMM.
December 2019
@TheJumpingJawa wrote:Another duo session, this time with a different friend.
Session ended early, neither of us enjoyed it.
Sweaty game after sweaty game; in both Casual & the Xmas Event.
If the intent of SBMM is to drive away players who've been active since the beginning, then good job Respawn, you've succeeded.
The way I see it, is that there'll always be a small group of try-hard pro players far above everyone else; unfun to play against.
Without SBMM, the "burden" of these players is spread among the entire game's population.
With SBMM, this burden is now carried solely by the 2% Diamond-tier.
As has been demonstrated by ranked; it simply isn't sustainable and will result in a cascade of abandonment.
It'll begin with the diamond-tier population gradually abandoning the game.
After that, the burden will progressively fall upon the plat-tier players. (though with an even larger skill gap!).
SBMM will hasten the death of the game's population.
What you say is reflected in the experience of not just diamond+ players, but also by platinum level players as well from what I have seen. It seems like gold tier players tend not to experience things as badly at the SBMM ranking they are at in casual matches. They do still feel the effect of being matched against tougher opponents that I've seen, but it is better exhibited for the people who play more overall. A top-down draining of the players that do play this game a lot is something I hope does not occur but may given how things are.
I appreciate your analysis and response in this discussion on the current state of SBMM.
December 2019
@DoYaSeeMe wrote:@JiboTVHe asked me personally, I answered with my view. I see no issue here. But it's pretty ironic that he was "punished" with a win. Also, talking about "zoo predators" isn't at all off topic. It's the SBMM that brings them out. People are crying about k/d ratios falling around here as well.
I'd like to see people bringing queue numbers into the discussion. If a queue is 60-100, SBMM can barely have any influence. To fill a lobby with those 0.2% top players. the queue needs to stay around 30.000 at any given moment. But with queue numbers dozens to hundreds of times smaller, SBMM is barely able to separate beginners from the high skilled players.
Regardless if he asked you personally, my point still stands in that your response is disingenuous or ignorant. You cannot just waltz up in the shoes of someone who experiences lobbies that you don't and act like you understand that level of difference between your lobbies one for one and say whether you'd prefer them. So you are either disingenuous and know your lobbies cannot be compared or ignorant to the fact your games are so different right now. Also, those mindless responses dismissing the point of the discussion by just stating "Zoo predators.", "You just want to be fed." are off-topic ad hominem and irrelevant to the topic of my post based on what I've written. I'll shut them down as I please or ask forum moderators to remove them because ad hominem is not healthy to discussion and is off-topic. Unless you disagree? In which case, (And this is an ironic use of sarcasm if it wasn't clear.) you should just get back to dying in bronze and git gud and stop spamming predators because ur mad at players for being better. See how useless that comment was? Anyways.
Queue numbers in regards to what? My queues are a bit longer than most lower ranked players I associate with. I am pretty patient so I do not mind too much and it seems like they are trying to fix that. Also, the idea that SBMM cannot 'take effect' because queue times are only 60-100 seconds seems like a really weird argument that does not have much basis. It is a priority based system to my knowledge, so the idea that SBMM has barely any influence seems just wrong unless you have information I don't.
December 2019
@Flashshark1980 wrote:
@DoYaSeeMe wrote:
I'd like to see people bringing queue numbers into the discussion. If a queue is 60-100, SBMM can barely have any influence. To fill a lobby with those 0.2% top players. the queue needs to stay around 30.000 at any given moment. But with queue numbers dozens to hundreds of times smaller, SBMM is barely able to separate beginners from the high skilled players.
Thanks for bringing in some realism into this discussion!
And what makes me wonder the most is:
If their K/D has dropped, and their winrate and and and
WHY DO THEY STILL GET 100% BETTER OPPONENTS?
If they play bad, the system downgrades them automatically to lower level.
But they still pretend they get the same difficult level...
I DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!
This all all useless crying of 1% of the active players...
99% are ok with the game...
Time to close this whinethreads!
You are the one whining. This is a thread to discuss SBMM and its impact on players. You are whining about players explaining their experience. You are contributing little to nothing to the discussion. If you do not like this discussion and love matchmaking, make another thread or actually try discussing in good faith here. Do not pollute mine with your nonsense. I have addressed your idea of "Why aren't they just leveling down in the SBMM?" argument already. You and @DoYaSeeMe can feel free to show me where I or others in this thread just complain about our k/d. You can also tell me why caring about your k/d at all is a bad thing. Please, I'm listening. You are drawing absurd conclusions that everyone is okay with the game at any rate and I'm done with you.