Why the massive discrepancy/exceptions for some weapons? (Also hitboxes) [ Edited ]

[ShaoAZ]

Look, I'm aware that there's probably 10 topics about what I am about to share but nothing really provides a definitive and objective perspective to this lack of balance within the game which makes the meta disgusting to play against with it's really low skill ceiling on the consistency of player ability.

We already have small hitboxes and the lack of inertia in the game which people can just AD instantly which goes against any logical behavior you'd expect from aiming at /anything/, same for crouch spamming, aiming at someone's crotch is not a solution when there's so many abusive situations that favors it, most notably cover, add some commitment to the actions of this game at least.. To continue, Low profile is a joke and it shouldn't increase damage but rather allow tagging through shields for having a smaller and harder to hitboxes. Your extra damage doesn't compensate for the fact that the speed of a player model gets broken as hell visually for having the same speeds as something that can be 50% bigger than it. You wouldn't have to rework Wraith if there was actually a proper fix that put the player in situations that are equally bad as people that play with bigger hitboxes.

Anyway,

Specifically for those things that I am about to mention for weapons:

Mastiff 

Super forgiving to use with 6 powerful shots, basically competes with the Peacekeeper because it has more shots and reloads per shells. It shouldn't have more than 4 shots like it's actual canon design, it would make the Mozambique way more attractive with it's hop-up and the more skillful Eva-8 finally be even and require different playstyles. Peacekeeper in the end gets more value as the best of the best for having all the perks outside of being a magazine reload.

Hemlok

Busted damage per shot for all it's pros, definitely one of the lowest skill weapon in the game. Please, fix this gun. It shouldn't be doing more damage per shot than the Flatline, this is ridiculous with all the benefits that it has. I want to love this gun and use it more but I can't enjoy the fact that using a rifle in burst mode which is super accurate hipfire/ADS compared the other who is slower and harder to use rewards me more. It's nasty and annoying.

Wingman

I've read over 20 topics with so many reasons that don't make sense as to why this gun is even allowed to be stupidly strong. It outclasses everything by not having any recoil, max ADS, shots more powerful than all rifles aside snipers. A typical example I saw was being compared to the Desert Eagle in CSGO which is complete non sense, I have over 15k kills with it and that one doesn't have super mobility like the Wingman does, it doesn't allow you to dodge bullets stupidly fast while being all accurate at the same time, there's actual risk and commitment to it, doesn't exist in Apex.

Balance this damn thing so that we can get some variety going on again instead of hearing the spam all the time. I'll even help with proper suggestions of finally getting rid of the ridiculous damage down to 35 because giving it damage drop off would be stupid, still same TTK without shields while increasing the required consistent aim from players that claim this thing takes skill which jokingly doesn't and hasn't for the longest time.

I might be only 300 hours in Apex but it doesn't take a PhD to notice how bad the situation is. ADS should also suffer at -5% or even -15% like SMG's for all the power it packs though that would perhaps be too hard, -5% is a good place to start. It's laughable to think the RE-45 which takes way more skill has to be slightly slowed down while this thing is allowed to roam free at 100% being a sniping Mozambique that can destroy people with RIFLES at Medium to Long Range being those have SLOW ADS speeds because that's the trade off for being versatile which makes them still targets while the Wingman EASILY gets to exploit that because of the ADS speed hard to hit and ridiculous damage.

Of course, with all those nerfs the Skullpiercer should have increased damage to compensate for the nerf of damage which will add value to the hop-up but also make the Wingman much more skilled as a weapon of precision where headshots are the actual reward instead of bodyshot spamming at any range which requires no effort at all.

I really love this game and want to keep loving it, but those anomalies really makes me annoyed and it's hard to recommend the game to people because of the sweatlords that abuses those very stale and boring oversights within the game balance.

Some of my friends who don't even like FPSes gives it a try just to find out how unfun it is, as if being a battle royal and based on a lot of RNG isn't hard enough.

Don't let it go to waste and consider making the game more interesting rather than leaving end game weapons lay around for to be abused.

It's fun to play a game knowing I got outplayed and destroyed not because I decided to use an R-301 and everyone else have a Mastiff/Wingman/Hemlok to which I can't contest in near perfect and skillfull situations.

It would be a good reminder also that skill = consistency. Having to land 5 powerful shots quickly without recoil is a lot easier than 18 weaker shots with recoil.

[GH0STEDbyME]

@ShaoAZ  What a thread! I don't even know where to begin xD I wonder if anyones been put off replying or intimated by the post length. Oh well. Time to roll up my sleeves.

There are a few threads about similar stuff but like you said they're not really broken down and discussed in as much depth. I do believe the meta should include more weapons rather than a handful but I suppose there's always going to be some kind of meta.

Hitboxes

I guess it's always a tricky one with hero shooters. You'd never find the issue in games like COD and Warzone because obviously everyone has the same hitbox. I guess the trade off with Apex is Low profile and fortified whereas in something like Overwatch there's a variety in Hero HP.

Similarly players are bound to aim at whatever part of the enemy that's exposed. Which let's face it can be anything from a knee or shoulder sticking out to the top of someone's character model. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Player behaviour

"AD"ing/ Strafing, Crouch spamming, Bunny hopping etc etc. Players are always going to do behavior like this to throw peoples aiming whether it's logical or not. Apex as you know favors high maneuverability so this kind of behaviour is here to stay.

Cover

This ones a bit dodgy because there's always other variables. Let's face it usually it's down lag to some degree. Being shot around cover, throw closed doorways, or completely around corners (wanted style). When you say there should be some kind of commitment to it do you mean like an actual cover system? Would be interesting to see it implemented.

---

You lost me a little regarding being broken up visually. And the comparison. Do you think someone with a bigger character model/hitbox should have a higher movement speed to make up for it?

And what you mean in reference to tagging through shields exactly?

Weapons

Mastiff: You're right, it is pretty forgiving as it doesn't really matter as much if you miss one or two shots. It could be nerfed to 4 shots but in my personal experience I find the damage is really inconsistent. Doesn't really matter that I've got 6 bullets if I'm doing 12-36 damage each shot. Especially when getting thirsted by SMGs.

-The Mozambique in the right hands is deadly when coupled with the hop-up yet it gets ignored for more meta guns. I've seen people shred with it.

-In terms of Mastiff vs EVA I guess it's more preference but it's definitely more risky if you miss shots.

-I still think the Peacekeeper is the best shotgun and was gutted when it moved into the CP.

Hemlock: I agree with you in terms of this gun. It's definitely a common pick due to it's damage and accuracy. A few trigger pulls and you've melted most players. I'm sure it got nerfed not too long ago but I can't remember the details. It's definitely more accurate than the Flatline across all distances especially when you factor in single fire.

Wingman: The most dodgy gun on the list. Hit your shots and you're gonna melt everyone regardless of what they're using shield or helmet wise. It's more of a weird recoil animation rather than actual recoil but I get your point, especially when hipfired. I can't comment on the CS:GO comparison because I've never played it :P A damage nerf might not be too bad as the gun has some ridiculous range due to well pretty much non existent bullet drop.

-I'm guessing you're not a fan of the new quickdraw hop-up then?

-From people I've spoken to regarding it people only really go for body shots which makes the Skullpiercer useless as it stands atmo.

RNG

This is a tricky one. Everyone that knows me on here is well aware of my hatred of this games RNG. There's nothing like searching 3 buildings to find attachments and heals just for you to run around the corner into someone with purple shield and an R-99.

If it wasn't for the extra hop ups I'd take them out of the loot pool completely and have guns automatically have them equipped like they did with the triple take.

I get that the replicators and the whole crafting system was implemented to combat this but we're just getting more and more things added to the loot pool. And let's face it if the rotation is shotgun attachments and I'm running an R99 and a Hemlock then it's no use to me in the slightest.

I honestly couldn't tell you how many times I've been squad wiped due to having nothing or any use when landing.

Like you said it's frustrating to know that you died in a 1v1 because you were using an inferior weapon whether it's due to having a low damage output per bullet or a slower fire rate. That's especially true when an enemy is peaking with a shotgun (like say through LLs drone or Gibbys dome).

Okay. So I think I've covered everything so let me know if anything doesn't make sense or I've missed anything. And obviously I'm interested to read what you put back and to see if anyone else would like to put in their two cents.

[ShaoAZ]

@GH0STEDbyME I could have elaborated better on a lot of it, didn't have my hopes that someone would reply so I appreciate that greatly.

The movement/hitbox was a last minute addition that could have been refined though I want to state that I'm okay with the AD spamming, it's good to not have stale fights where it mostly comes down to the weapon having the best DPS because standing still/being an easy target, that's good! However without any form of tagging with shields under the incarnation of low profile characters, it heavily favors them.

With those decisions the game is bound to be really unfair with characters that are small, it's more than just size but visual feedback that can be extremely off putting, especially with fast ADS weapons. Why?

I can't provide 100% factual evidence, but in my personal experience playing Wraith I find myself dying much less if at all compared other Legends which leads me to believe that it's objectively fact that (Not just Wraith.) most Low Profile relative to that, end up being extremely agile and quick to do anything with the speed everyone shares because their existing bodies have to keep up with the values that were defined.

Put in perspective, I don't think the hitbox is exactly the issue but the fact that specific hitbox can wiggle all over the place without much punishment. 5%+ Damage is definitely insignificant as TTK doesn't really change unlike Fortified which can. However if those small hitboxes would get slowed down/tagged just ever so slightly as a result of being hit, it would be much better of a solution to the issue in many ways, the accuracy of the registry could heavily benefit too.

Obviously, I wouldn't ask Respawn to use extreme values for Low Profile to slow down on hits, I don't have the current values either though I don't think it even exist? For all the people I have ever shoot at, they've never seemed to slow down at all, I can even provide footage to show.

Anyways, that's my /proper/ suggestion for fixing the problem with hitboxes, Legends that are harder to hit should be affected more by tagging if it exists, if not it should be added and shields should not prevent it. That'd easily take care of the frustration most players complain about.

Into the weapons;

Mastiff does /kinda/ feel inconsistent as I have heard and kinda saw, but after testing it typically came down to range, how dead center the spread is and if aiming down sight or not, I couldn't replicate or have evidence that it is actually inconsistent at all without seeing there was user mistake, but I won't lie, having RNG in the pellets spreading apart of each other should not be a thing.

As a shotgun we'd expect it to always do decent damage hitting anyone at close range but I think all there is to blame is the design because it contradicts expectations at a certain threshold. Per say, DPS wise, it's definitely above all the Shotguns but that's not the only problem we got here, it's also the only Shotgun with shells manually loaded which in various situations puts it above all, hence why it feels very contradictory to give it so many shots, including above the Peacekeeper.

Next;

Hemlok is simply above all assault rifles, is that a bad thing? Yes, very bad? How to fix? Perhaps just damage to be the same as the Flatline? I highly doubt that we should change much but the damage. It should be for players to pick if they'd prefer have something that has less kick but deal the same amount of damage as the Flatline at the cost of how it's being used. Being that the gun can equip a barrel though.. That puts it in a position where it should have more kick, about just a bit higher than the Flatline even if it's 3 round burst so that barrels have actual value.

Finally;

Wingman besides magazine size has everything going for itself, it's the best gun in the game and I can confidently say so by how any game I have one in my hands, they often end up as a win if I don't get third party over and over. Everything can be done with that thing, peek fights, sniping, out pace encounters with movement and power at the same time.

Refining the suggestions;

I brought the CSGO example because I've seen it a lot, the Desert Eagle itself to be accurate you need to be still and tagging heavily influences the user because of it's already slower moving speed which is 92% slower compared the max speed. Quite different from Apex!

We could go the simple way and nerf damage to 36. TTK is increased by one shot on level 1/2/3/4 shields and 2 shots on level 5. Increase base headshot at 2.5x to have the same 90 damage and add a 1x multiplier at 40+ meters because the Skullpiercer with it's newer added headshot at 3x for 108 damage should also remove the restriction of distance which adds a lot of value to the so frowned upon hop-up. We end up with somewhat more skillful Wingman without changing it's early encounters against unarmored.

Or

You'd think that it would be stupid, but have a look at it. We could nerf damage to 30 which would increase unarmored and armored TTK, however we'd increase base headshot multiplier by 3x to keep the same 90 damage while still having the +40 meter limit, like before as we buff the hop up even more at an increase of x3.5 for a total of a close 105 again, base magazine size to 6 and level 1/2/3 to 7/8/9 then finally have it's firerate brought back to the similar old 3 shots per second or precisely 3.58 RoF / 215 RPM. That way we pretty much have a P2020 that's potent at all times rather than just against unarmored with the bonus of rewarding skillful players with better damage on headshots.

As for RNG! It didn't mean it as a complain but rather make better use of it by not having weapons that dominates the pool, like we already have to put up with that! Why have the weapons making it worst? So it goes back to what I've been saying for the balance. I may have sounded like it's a complain, but rather I wanted to put in the light that because there's RNG, end game weapons shouldn't exist in other than care packages. Per say, if someone finds a Mozambique and I find a Wingman in the current state of the game, we definitely know who's gonna win regardless of the aim. (Wingman is pretty much the ultimate Mozambique right now.)

However if I had to say play with the 2nd suggestion Wingman, we'd have a more even match depending on the players skill because the stakes are mostly even. Both are fast, however one is deadlier and easier to use closely while the other you'd favor range because it takes more damage to kill.

To finalize with the crouch spam, let's say CSGO as an example again. You can technically spam, but only for about 3-4 times before the crouching is slowed, which would honestly be healthy for the game as it'd favor opportunities in a limit amount and make those who don't have covers at less of a disavantage by making the aggressor unable to peek so much safely indefinitely.

Again thanks for reading and I'd love to hear more feedback, I really want the game to be better. It's really unfun how toxic the meta can get as of late and the sighs of it dying by many who have predicted it are not too far off. For everyone to just have a Wingman required to win will drive away potential players.

[DarthValtrex]

@ShaoAZ ARe you on console or PC, the wingman has a fairly wicked kick up and if you spam fire it as fast as possible you will be shooting over the heads of your enemies if you don't take that into account.

I agree it's a good gun but it's a difficult gun for most people to use. It comes no place near a 99 or volt in CQC I have tried to use the wingman vs a volt or 99 and it's only effective if the enemy is horrible at recoil control with the 99 or volt. You will get melted instantly before your wingman can do much.

[MandatoryIDtag]

@DarthValtrex  I've never really noticed a kick to the wingman when firing consecutive shots in quick succession, if im aiming upper torso and do this it'll generally remain as upper torso shots. I think the difficulty in this weapon where people struggle is

a) the hit reg seems weird at times.

b) the players own ability to track a target whilst maintaining fire.

What I would say about this gun compared to others is considering how large the hipfire reticle is, it doesn't actually reflect on just how accurately this gun can be hipfired, especially with the newest hop up which is highly underrated and as far as i'm concerned more useful overall than SP's.

If you're playing pathfinder for example with the wingman in hipfire,  your grapple reticle might aswell act as ADS as you can hit with some serious accuracy close range.

[ShaoAZ]

@DarthValtrex I'm PC, I understand what you mean by the "kick", however in the game itself... It's an animation without much impact on the actual gameplay other than visual hinderance. The recoil is about as bad as the P2020 when you shoot it, if it was more like the RE-45 at the first 4 shots per shot then I'd understand why people think it's a hard weapon. (Might just be personal bias, but I really don't have issue using it.)

Although I agree, if we are to take the Volt or R99 in a perfect scenario against the Wingman. In theory, yes the Wingman does lose, but let's not forget about it's mobility while to achieve such damage on the Volt or R99, we have to aim down sight, which easily puts them at the greater disadvantage which is why it feels really unfair compared the SMG's that need more hits to be valid.

Per say, the Wingman body shots simply feel too strong with it's ability to dodge around. Too rewarding compared having to track someone with an SMG. I don't think slowing down the weapon ADS is a good idea when it's the greatest strength of it and what people are the most used to (Some have said otherwise and should it be nerfed, I don't agree). Ain't nothing wrong if it dealt damage as big as a P2020 Hammerpoint but permanently whether it's shielded or not. It's a pistol afterall, shouldn't be slowed at all.

I've included the recoil patterns of the gun in this PNG attached to display what I mean by not having any kick.

[BaldWraithSimp]

@ShaoAZYour comparison between CS:Go desert eagle and Wingman makes no sense as Apex doesn't punish you for A-D spamming while CS:Go requires you to be 'not moving' while shooting or your accuracy takes a big hit and that stands for every single gun, not just Desert eagle.

As someone who has over 2k hours in Apex, I still don't pick up a Wingman often cuz I am so bad at it. It's OP if you have a very good aim, or there is no point in picking it up. You lost me at 'RE-45 requires more skill than Wingman' lmao

As for Hemlock, I have been a Hemlock user for past 3 seasons(secondary) and the only thing they messed up was reducing recoil to the point where it was too easy and noob-friendly, so I agree with you on that. Revert it to S5 state and it will slide quietly to it's peaceful state as a secondary weapon. It always had good hip-fire, the buffs made it OP.

[DarthValtrex]

@MandatoryIDtag You might be right, I just know that you have to some what slow down when firing it for the gun to be effectve. I don't know how to describe what slow down is and have always blamed it on the animation of the gun kicking up a fairly large amount.

I agree the SP is just not worth it. The benefit received from the SP does not outweigh the benefit received from the quick draw. The quick draw improvement to the gun might seem minimal but it's beneficial every time you use the gun. Where as the SP is only beneficial if you land headshots.

I like the gun most of the time.

[ShaoAZ]

@BaldWraithSimp I think you're not understanding. I said that I saw many times people comparing both as deadly accurate pistols that takes competent aim, however they all forget on the mobility fact, like I stated it takes commitment in between shots, can't AD spam and stutterstep is going to be as mobile as it gets. Just to slide this in though SMG's do allow for mobility but that's besides the point.

I would recommend that you try and compare both the Wingman and RE-45 to see which has the worst handling, to achieve about the same damage as the Wing on RE you need 4 shots which easily tosses the screen up right while the Wing moves about barely 5% of what the RE suffers from. You can easily tell by that which is the hardest to achieve max DPS, barrel mitigates but doesn't make it any easier to be consistent.

I still don't understand why the Hemlok burst needs to be so strong when it's deadly accurate already and I was really confused when they buffed it even more not long ago, I was using it a lot, I liked the weapon but when I realized how pathetically weak the Flatline was, it became obvious as to why everyone picks up the Hemlok. Part of me wondered why targets melted so fast with little effort on my part, seeing the 23 vs 19 per bullet was shocking.

I heard that the Hemlok was barely used before hence why they buffed it but why if it was balanced in the past? It would still be a great primary gun even if it had equal damage as the Flatline, it'll still be a good battle rifle for the people that prefer burst over full-auto, the hipfire at close as is awesome and I can stand beside that, however the damage is bonkers.