Re: What Really Happened? (Spoilers Read at Own Risk)

iKillOrDieTryN · April 2017

@Arsenic_Touch wrote:

Given that scott/sara actually died from oxygen deprivation, what makes you think alec would've survived without a helmet? the only reason scott/sara even survived was because alec transferred SAM to them. Without SAM and a helmet, the argon/nitogen atmosphere would've surely killed him just like it killed your character.

yeah and sam killed us by stopping our heart if he can do that why couldn't he alter alec's lungs or put him into a state of near death and wake him up later. its not like making sara/scott pathfinder disconnects sam from his implant. it just give authority to them. plus if bioware can kill shepard and bring him/her back why not alec in a future game?

the key to make it possible is sam.

fudgietroll · June 2017

@iKillOrDieTryN wrote:
@Arsenic_Touch wrote:
Given that scott/sara actually died from oxygen deprivation, what makes you think alec would've survived without a helmet? the only reason scott/sara even survived was because alec transferred SAM to them. Without SAM and a helmet, the argon/nitogen atmosphere would've surely killed him just like it killed your character.
yeah and sam killed us by stopping our heart if he can do that why couldn't he alter alec's lungs or put him into a state of near death and wake him up later. its not like making sara/scott pathfinder disconnects sam from his implant. it just give authority to them. plus if bioware can kill shepard and bring him/her back why not alec in a future game?

the key to make it possible is sam.

And Harry, the pronouncing doctor that Alec insisted come along. Just sayin'.

I wonder if Alec, being the utter over-preparing paranoid that he is, especially since he is hunting the Benefactor, went to the planet planning to "die" so he could run his op under the radar without endangering his kids.

draqonin · June 2017

It could be possible. They should still have Alec's body.

1. Cerberus could pop in later on, and clone him. lol

2. Benefactor could be implicated in his cloning. You never know.

3. Remnants can create life and play with genetics. This could be more interesting than Cerberus or Benefactor.

The thing is, Alec would have to play a secondary role since main protagonist is one of his kids.

Maybe Alec's purpose was to see one of his kids take over his role so he could focus on other stuff. However, it didn't seem his death was an intended accident.

Or, they killed him off because the voice actor was too expensive.

fudgietroll · June 2017

@draqonin wrote:
It could be possible. They should still have Alec's body.

1. Cerberus could pop in later on, and clone him. lol
2. Benefactor could be implicated in his cloning. You never know.
3. Remnants can create life and play with genetics. This could be more interesting than Cerberus or Benefactor.

The thing is, Alec would have to play a secondary role since main protagonist is one of his kids.
Maybe Alec's purpose was to see one of his kids take over his role so he could focus on other stuff. However, it didn't seem his death was an intended accident.
Or, they killed him off because the voice actor was too expensive.

We may or may not have Alec's body somewhere. Whether Alec's body is around, or just listed as stored, cremated, etc. makes a lot of difference. The fact that we don't see Alec after we pass out on Habitat 7, along with Alec's general paranoid over-prepared Alecness, has helped fuel the speculation that he isn't dead, and was just gaming everyone. Of course, if he IS still alive he will probably of his own "faction" rather than Tempest crew, etc.

The whole thing makes me think of Liam Neeson's Col. Hannibal Smith escaping from prison. "So Satan walks into a bar..."

EgoMania · June 2017

Although I would agree that it's an unlikely scenario, I will not underestimate BioWare's obscene obsession with raising people back from the dead as a story gimmick.

Ryder already died a couple of times and came back right?

If you've played SWTOR you'll know what I mean when I mention Revan, Valkorion and Kephess. Their multiple ressurrections have become running gags and to me it's just a testament to BioWare's inability to continue good story writing.

Personally I feel that BioWare is just repeating tricks that were once successful and are not looking too well at the law of diminishing returns. The truth probably is that BioWare was never really good at writing stories but rather at making compelling characters and interactions. DA:I fell flat for me because the companions were not compelling to me. ME:A is better for me because I actually do like a few of the companions and crew.

Anyways. I don't expect Alec to come back because I would not want him to come back as it would cheapen the story. In essence, even though she never truly died, Ellen already got the ressurrection treatment and for Alec to also get it would just be blah. Having said that, I don't put it past BioWare. It's something they could very well do, just because that's what's their story telling has been reduced to. I mean, as much as I have enjoyed playing ME:A, I suspect few people will actually say that the main story was really amazing and inspiring.

fudgietroll · June 2017

@EgoMania wrote:
Although I would agree that it's an unlikely scenario, I will not underestimate BioWare's obscene obsession with raising people back from the dead as a story gimmick.

Ryder already died a couple of times and came back right?

If you've played SWTOR you'll know what I mean when I mention Revan, Valkorion and Kephess. Their multiple ressurrections have become running gags and to me it's just a testament to BioWare's inability to continue good story writing.

Personally I feel that BioWare is just repeating tricks that were once successful and are not looking too well at the law of diminishing returns. The truth probably is that BioWare was never really good at writing stories but rather at making compelling characters and interactions. DA:I fell flat for me because the companions were not compelling to me. ME:A is better for me because I actually do like a few of the companions and crew.

Anyways. I don't expect Alec to come back because I would not want him to come back as it would cheapen the story. In essence, even though she never truly died, Ellen already got the ressurrection treatment and for Alec to also get it would just be blah. Having said that, I don't put it past BioWare. It's something they could very well do, just because that's what's their story telling has been reduced to. I mean, as much as I have enjoyed playing ME:A, I suspect few people will actually say that the main story was really amazing and inspiring.

Honestly, I liked DAI's story and companions for the most part, and was ok with Revan's KOTOR resurrection. Just to provide an alternative view. And if they decide that Alec isn't dead I think they provided enough of a platform for it that it would be believable. If you think there is more to add put it here OR here

EgoMania · June 2017

People will have different opinions on what they like or not but I just hate that this has become a gimmick that they just keep pulling out of the hat because apparently they can't come up with something better.

It's something that's happened so often in stories that I just don't really believe it anymore and so if you play a character who loses their father but in the back of your head you know he might not be dead, it bypasses the sense of loss entirely. And if in the end he doesn't come back then it doesn't really matter anymore. I like when stories take you along in an emotion but when cynicism takes over because BioWare fuels that cynicism by overusing story telling crutches, then it's a real shame to me.

You were ok with Revan's ressurrection. I don't even know what that means, but it doesn't give me the feeling you felt it was a great plot twist, just acceptable. I just felt that the whole story line after the vanilla game was just one disaster after another. Again, my opinion though I was clearly not alone in that view.

Whatever the reason though, I find BioWare's stories becoming less and less compelling. It just seems to stay around the same level and doesn't evolve. Different characters but in the end after the bug fixes what really sets ME:A apart from the original trilogy for me is that I don't feel as involved and engaged in the story. I had that problem in DA:I as well. The overarching story was pretty good still but I just didn't care about the characters around me.

Doesn't mean the games are terribly bad but I miss feeling pulled into the story and actually caring what happens to my companions.

fudgietroll · June 2017

@EgoMania wrote:
People will have different opinions on what they like or not but I just hate that this has become a gimmick that they just keep pulling out of the hat because apparently they can't come up with something better.

It's something that's happened so often in stories that I just don't really believe it anymore and so if you play a character who loses their father but in the back of your head you know he might not be dead, it bypasses the sense of loss entirely. And if in the end he doesn't come back then it doesn't really matter anymore. I like when stories take you along in an emotion but when cynicism takes over because BioWare fuels that cynicism by overusing story telling crutches, then it's a real shame to me.

You were ok with Revan's ressurrection. I don't even know what that means, but it doesn't give me the feeling you felt it was a great plot twist, just acceptable. I just felt that the whole story line after the vanilla game was just one disaster after another. Again, my opinion though I was clearly not alone in that view.

Whatever the reason though, I find BioWare's stories becoming less and less compelling. It just seems to stay around the same level and doesn't evolve. Different characters but in the end after the bug fixes what really sets ME:A apart from the original trilogy for me is that I don't feel as involved and engaged in the story. I had that problem in DA:I as well. The overarching story was pretty good still but I just didn't care about the characters around me.

Doesn't mean the games are terribly bad but I miss feeling pulled into the story and actually caring what happens to my companions.

I don't think we should permanently write off a decent plot device because the writers are prone to abuse it. If they do a good job of it we should allow it in the future, possibly in this case, although asking them to expand their collection of plot tools is reasonable.

As for Revan, you had mentioned them resurrecting in SWTOR, so I thought I would go back a bit further to one of the (I believe) prequels KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) which I felt had done a good job with some of these issues. It's older, but still fun to play, and you can probably get it cheap at the steam sale right now.

EgoMania · June 2017

@fudgietroll wrote:
I don't think we should permanently write off a decent plot device because the writers are prone to abuse it. If they do a good job of it we should allow it in the future, possibly in this case, although asking them to expand their collection of plot tools is reasonable.

As for Revan, you had mentioned them resurrecting in SWTOR, so I thought I would go back a bit further to one of the (I believe) prequels KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) which I felt had done a good job with some of these issues. It's older, but still fun to play, and you can probably get it cheap at the steam sale right now.

Your conclusion that I want to permanently write it off is a false conclusion. Also the writers aren't just prone to abuse it, they already are abusing it and I want them to tone it down. Let them write a story or two without it and see if they can manage. I feel they are simply incapable of doing it now.

Besides to bring him back in a well written way also would mean that the initial death would have to be of a certain impact. I submit that this impact has not been achieved with Alec. We barely knew him and he wasn't very sympathetic so his death was like, oh well. Life goes on. And for him to be brought back after suffering a double death (lack of oxygen and transfer of SAM which is apparently usually lethal as well) it'd have to be a damn good reason that he's still alive. But why? I mean it's not something I'd be hoping for to begin with. So for me the whole point of bringing him back makes no sense. That ship has already sailed by having him die in such a meaningless context. I felt zero emotion at his death because of the way it played out so early on in the story.

And with Revan you explain the issue. It was dealt with already in KOTOR and then he came back a few more times in SWTOR as well. That just made it farcical. Then with all the other npc's that were being ressurrected left and right it just became completely ridiculous.

Again, nobody's writing anything off here but I'd like them to lay off the ressurrections for a couple of stories. They've abused that trick already too many times now and I think they can do something else now. Or can they? I mean, you didn't even get near the Archon when he supposedly died. Is he coming back as well for another round? I have to wonder, because BioWare story telling. Whenever a significant npc dies, I expect that he/she may come back and it kind of kills the surprise factor when you expect it. Surely, you've heard of the law of diminishing returns?

fudgietroll · June 2017

@EgoMania wrote:
@fudgietroll wrote:
I don't think we should permanently write off a decent plot device because the writers are prone to abuse it. If they do a good job of it we should allow it in the future, possibly in this case, although asking them to expand their collection of plot tools is reasonable.

As for Revan, you had mentioned them resurrecting in SWTOR, so I thought I would go back a bit further to one of the (I believe) prequels KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) which I felt had done a good job with some of these issues. It's older, but still fun to play, and you can probably get it cheap at the steam sale right now.
Your conclusion that I want to permanently write it off is a false conclusion. Also the writers aren't just prone to abuse it, they already are abusing it and I want them to tone it down. Let them write a story or two without it and see if they can manage. I feel they are simply incapable of doing it now.

Besides to bring him back in a well written way also would mean that the initial death would have to be of a certain impact. I submit that this impact has not been achieved with Alec. We barely knew him and he wasn't very sympathetic so his death was like, oh well. Life goes on. And for him to be brought back after suffering a double death (lack of oxygen and transfer of SAM which is apparently usually lethal as well) it'd have to be a damn good reason that he's still alive. But why? I mean it's not something I'd be hoping for to begin with. So for me the whole point of bringing him back makes no sense. That ship has already sailed by having him die in such a meaningless context. I felt zero emotion at his death because of the way it played out so early on in the story.

And with Revan you explain the issue. It was dealt with already in KOTOR and then he came back a few more times in SWTOR as well. That just made it farcical. Then with all the other npc's that were being ressurrected left and right it just became completely ridiculous.

Again, nobody's writing anything off here but I'd like them to lay off the ressurrections for a couple of stories. They've abused that trick already too many times now and I think they can do something else now. Or can they? I mean, you didn't even get near the Archon when he supposedly died. Is he coming back as well for another round? I have to wonder, because BioWare story telling. Whenever a significant npc dies, I expect that he/she may come back and it kind of kills the surprise factor when you expect it. Surely, you've heard of the law of diminishing returns?

I never played SWTOR so I just have the KOTOR version, which is applicable. Revan was an individual you start out having no real emotional attachment to, then as you go along you find out more about them until WHAM they're back and screwing with the main antagonist's master plan. Alec is similar. We encounter him, couple brief interactions with him, he dies so we live, Daaad, etc., then we begin to find out more about him, including some of his off the books stuff, and he becomes more interesting, and we get a better idea of how he works, which is what got us to questioning his death in the first place. Really, if he comes back, the only way it works is if he pre-planned this and set it up so he could "die" in the first place, although we were probably not supposed to cut it as close as we did.

Re: What Really Happened? (Spoilers Read at Own Risk)

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