Re: Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

by hayhor
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Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

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In the patch that came with the Chaos Theory Collection Event back in Season 8, Caustic got a game changing nerf to his gas damage to counter act his obnoxious in all levels of play. Before the change, Caustic's gas would deal 6 damage per tick, escalating to 12 damage per tick if the enemy/enemies stayed in the gas for long enough. After the change, Caustic Gas would only deal a flat 5 damage per tick. This was obviously a massive change and many Caustic players believed the change was too much. But was it really too much?

 

Similarly, with the Season 9 update, Horizon received some major changes to her gravity lift tactical ability. During seasons 7 and 8 Horizon was incredibly powerful mainly because of her gravity lift. She had overtaken most of the Legends in win-rate statistics upon release and managed to take the spot of highest win-rate because she was just too versatile and powerful. She had incredible mid fight mobility that helped her disengage unfavourable positions, engage into team-fights and dodge bullets while simultaneously mowing enemies down, all with the use of her gravity lift. In Season 9, a lot of her mobility was nerfed, the side to side strafing acceleration was slowed moderately, the speed at which players travelled up the gravity lift was slowed and players now had a maximum of 2 seconds to stay at the top of the ability. Horizon instantly fell out of the meta and was no longer as disgustingly powerful as she was in her prime. Many players thought the nerfs were good but a little too much, similar to Caustic. But were they?

 

Let's look at the effects of Caustic's nerf. According to Daniel Klein, lead game designer for Apex Legends, Caustic's win rate statistics were minutely affected and this proves that players were still finding his abilities very effective, although his pick rate was dramatically reduced. Since the nerf I've been playing and studying Caustic closely and my analysis is that although Caustic is no longer a killing machine and his gas is no longer very lethal at all, it still performs its main purpose of zoning enemies, forcing enemies out of tight spaces and helping his team control enclosed areas very effectively. Although it's not as noticeable, Caustic still has a major advantage in gunfights with gassed opponents, because of that vision obscuring and because of the movement de-buff, so he can still obtain kills with his gas, it's just slightly more fair for the opponents. With all this in mind, was Caustic's nerf really too much and does he really need some buffs? In my opinion, no, although he is rarely played any more his abilities are still really effective and balanced. Is he still a viable Legend choice? Absolutely, although the changes have come with a moderate playstyle adjustment. If there are any Caustic mains out there reading this post, what is your analysis of Caustic after the changes? Does he really need a change in your opinion?

 

Lastly let's look at Horizon. Now I am a Revenant main, but Horizon is definitely my second go to Legend, both before the changes and after, and although I don't play her very frequently, I do have a 3K damage badge, Level 2 Assassin badge and a record of 15 kills as my highest kill game with her, so I do know much more about how she feels gameplay wise than I do with Caustic. Statistic wise, Horizon fell from having the highest win rate to about 6th or 7th. With the fact that there are currently 17 Legends in the game this placement automatically puts her in the top half of the pack. I have been playing Horizon a lot this season and comparing her to before, there's really not much of a difference. Her gravity lift is definitely more clunky than before and will take a while to get used to but once you do and understand a new playstyle adjustment for her she's really similar to her previous state. The only big difference being she's not an absolute damage and kill farm like she was before. Personally I got multiple high damage and high kill games with pre nerf Horizon simply due to her high mobility during fights and her strong Ultimate, and a lot of content creators including some that don't even play very often hit personal records with the Legend. Now that's obviously not the case but take that away from the equation, Horizon still has great mobility. The gravity lift still grants 100% weapon accuracy while you're being lifted so you still have a decent advantage in 1v1 gunfights with it, and she can quickly reposition her entire squad to high ground or out of sticky situations. You still can also get a free shield battery off while getting shot at with her gravity lift, it's just much harder to pull off because you have to time your exit from the gravity lift perfectly so you don't get lasered. All of this and the fact that Black Hole is one of the strongest Ultimates in the game, I strongly think that Horizon does not need a change, but I would like to hear the opinions of any Horizon mains out there. Does she really need changes to her gravity lift?

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Re: Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

[ Edited ]
Champion

@CompleatBeetCaustic main here with 497 wins. It would be well over 500 but I've moved away from the gasman this season. Caustic is still quite usable but the game has moved away from zoning and defensive legends. Every legend now is mobility and scouting. And the maps have less and less building and areas that can be defended. If a defensive legend has nowhere to defend they arent really that useful if they dont have attacking abilities. Caustic had attacking abilities when his thrown barrels were smaller and setup faster.

This is what I want for Caustic- Reversion of the barrel nerf and reduction of his character size to bangalore size.

 

I mentioned above I moved characters. Who do I play now? Octane mostly. He takes the least amount of skill to use.

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Re: Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

★★★★★ Expert
@CompleatBeet Everyone wants Horizon tactical to be a instant high ground and get out of jail free card. They should focus on her ability to get her whole team to high ground with only her tactical while also maintaining 100% accuracy. Maybe the nerf was a bit harsh, but according to patch notes 'she will be closer to season 7 state' which sounds like 80% revert.
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Re: Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

Champion
@CompleatBeet Horizons original issue was she could move a whole team with no sound. I dont understand why the devs cannot see this.

The same is happening right now with Octane but at least it is an ultimate.
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Re: Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

[ Edited ]
★★★★ Guide

There's more to it than just sound. When you are in mid fight with all her team lifting and straffing madly, you don't care about the sound but about bullets spraying from all directions...

Message 5 of 8 (339 Views)

Re: Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

Champion
@IMightKickAss No sound as she moved her whole team to height behind got me killed more than anything. The ones that strafed on their thing in front of me I could get away from.
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Re: Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

★★★★ Guide
@hayhor True enough. But actually, why should we have a sound from an Octane taking a jumpad 50 meters away or from a reverse gravity pull of a character?
There is no "whooch" or whistly sound in reality except if you have some really edgy parts. I would say that is something that might differentiate these two from Valk Jetpack or Path grapple and a gameplay element to take into account. In the military there is always this lesson about "watch everywhere".
It might apply, don't you think? Indeed it's a huge tactical advantage, but this is the edge of such characters. The fact that Horizon took a real hit because of slowing her pull up was because people kept using her the same, using it in firefights and trying to get away, instead of changing tactics and get silently around enemies. The problem is not character power, it's all about what players think they should do.
You can indeed push madly with Caustic, even without it's ult.
I am a bad player -really-, but in Arena, I don't count the times I prevented an enemy to get away with a gaz trap thrown at the right moment and preventing their move away, also in the end preventing them to run.
I still don't have horizon, but her levitation allows so many tactics in my mind that I think it would not just be the "pull me up above this fight" which often get them killed because they are so much above any obstacle that you have a free line of fire on them.
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Re: Were Caustic and Horizon actually over-nerfed?

★★★ Pro

@CompleatBeet wrote:

In the patch that came with the Chaos Theory Collection Event back in Season 8, Caustic got a game changing nerf to his gas damage to counter act his obnoxious in all levels of play. Before the change, Caustic's gas would deal 6 damage per tick, escalating to 12 damage per tick if the enemy/enemies stayed in the gas for long enough. After the change, Caustic Gas would only deal a flat 5 damage per tick. This was obviously a massive change and many Caustic players believed the change was too much. But was it really too much?

 

Similarly, with the Season 9 update, Horizon received some major changes to her gravity lift tactical ability. During seasons 7 and 8 Horizon was incredibly powerful mainly because of her gravity lift. She had overtaken most of the Legends in win-rate statistics upon release and managed to take the spot of highest win-rate because she was just too versatile and powerful. She had incredible mid fight mobility that helped her disengage unfavourable positions, engage into team-fights and dodge bullets while simultaneously mowing enemies down, all with the use of her gravity lift. In Season 9, a lot of her mobility was nerfed, the side to side strafing acceleration was slowed moderately, the speed at which players travelled up the gravity lift was slowed and players now had a maximum of 2 seconds to stay at the top of the ability. Horizon instantly fell out of the meta and was no longer as disgustingly powerful as she was in her prime. Many players thought the nerfs were good but a little too much, similar to Caustic. But were they?

 

Let's look at the effects of Caustic's nerf. According to Daniel Klein, lead game designer for Apex Legends, Caustic's win rate statistics were minutely affected and this proves that players were still finding his abilities very effective, although his pick rate was dramatically reduced. Since the nerf I've been playing and studying Caustic closely and my analysis is that although Caustic is no longer a killing machine and his gas is no longer very lethal at all, it still performs its main purpose of zoning enemies, forcing enemies out of tight spaces and helping his team control enclosed areas very effectively. Although it's not as noticeable, Caustic still has a major advantage in gunfights with gassed opponents, because of that vision obscuring and because of the movement de-buff, so he can still obtain kills with his gas, it's just slightly more fair for the opponents. With all this in mind, was Caustic's nerf really too much and does he really need some buffs? In my opinion, no, although he is rarely played any more his abilities are still really effective and balanced. Is he still a viable Legend choice? Absolutely, although the changes have come with a moderate playstyle adjustment. If there are any Caustic mains out there reading this post, what is your analysis of Caustic after the changes? Does he really need a change in your opinion?

 

Lastly let's look at Horizon. Now I am a Revenant main, but Horizon is definitely my second go to Legend, both before the changes and after, and although I don't play her very frequently, I do have a 3K damage badge, Level 2 Assassin badge and a record of 15 kills as my highest kill game with her, so I do know much more about how she feels gameplay wise than I do with Caustic. Statistic wise, Horizon fell from having the highest win rate to about 6th or 7th. With the fact that there are currently 17 Legends in the game this placement automatically puts her in the top half of the pack. I have been playing Horizon a lot this season and comparing her to before, there's really not much of a difference. Her gravity lift is definitely more clunky than before and will take a while to get used to but once you do and understand a new playstyle adjustment for her she's really similar to her previous state. The only big difference being she's not an absolute damage and kill farm like she was before. Personally I got multiple high damage and high kill games with pre nerf Horizon simply due to her high mobility during fights and her strong Ultimate, and a lot of content creators including some that don't even play very often hit personal records with the Legend. Now that's obviously not the case but take that away from the equation, Horizon still has great mobility. The gravity lift still grants 100% weapon accuracy while you're being lifted so you still have a decent advantage in 1v1 gunfights with it, and she can quickly reposition her entire squad to high ground or out of sticky situations. You still can also get a free shield battery off while getting shot at with her gravity lift, it's just much harder to pull off because you have to time your exit from the gravity lift perfectly so you don't get lasered. All of this and the fact that Black Hole is one of the strongest Ultimates in the game, I strongly think that Horizon does not need a change, but I would like to hear the opinions of any Horizon mains out there. Does she really need changes to her gravity lift?


@CompleatBeet As a caustic main with close to 3000 kills I *totally* disagree.

 

It was really obvious to someone who has played him for many games.  The gas went from being a strong deterrent to people literally not caring.  I was noticing people who were quite happy to fight in it and pass through it.  You could literally heal faster with a syringe than the damage it was doing.  I noticed this first hand after people began to realise the implications of the nerf.  As a Caustic main, the difference was *really* obvious and pretty disheartening.

 

The buff has helped but he's not the deterrent he used to be.  Not even close.

 

- DR

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