Sunflowers Vs Scientists

[craigdominic]

Since the first game I felt sunflowers were way outmatched by scientists who are basically a huge offensive class.

Scientists for the most part are close range, no precision,  three hits and you're dead 

sunflowers for the most part are long range, high precision, hit 25 times or more to vanquish.

The sunbeam doesn't really make up for the difference to me 

In the first game it was evened out by the fact that Scientists could only heal with heal stations and while I love the heal beam of science when playing as a scientist...it really mismatches the two classes a lot.

thoughts?

[bobburgers6]

In the fashion of PVZ 1, plants are defensive while zombies are usually offensive class types (exceptions being the all-star and engineer whose skills are more defensive or support based).  

Sunflower is the default all-around healer when it comes to both skills and how the character is designed; a much longer reaching heal line, a pot that heals the user and its targets [though all the sunshines can be grabbed by a single player for more concentrated healing], and a beam that provides slight DR and deals decent damage per tick (not shot).  Her alternate abilities reflect on her different playstyles for being more aggressive (dark flower), protecting the tank (rainbow flower), and stronger concentrated fire (10-12 damage instead of 7-8).

Scientists are the foremost close range fighters outside of superbrainz and chompers; they are rather easy to pick up early game and prod aggressive bouts .  They have a metal station that heals the user and its targets (yet provides no concentrated healing),  a grenade that can be used to damage targets or create a zone of protection, and a warp that closes the gap or allows for escape.  His alternate abilities are similar in intention, but also  help to cope with the weaknesses of the scientist.  The heal line allows the scientist to move with his target rather than the tank or a fellow aggressor moving to the heal station in order to stay alive, the energy warp helps to cope with chompers' burrow, spike weed, potato mines, and chili bombs, and the heal grenade allows the scientist to provide concentrated healing to targets as well as himself.

Outside of the above mentioned, I find that sunflowers have incredible survivability, and while they cannot close the gap, they can outlive the scientists long enough to finish them off.  I rarely have problems with stray scientists trying to punish me in game unless they sneaked up behind me beforehand.  In addition, the heal line for the scientist replaces the station, which helps to encourage the scientist to move with his intended target, but also removes the scientist 's personal healing besides the heal grenade, which then removes extra damage that can be dealt to targets.  The scientist is great early game, but in later portions of maps where there are less lanes for surprise attacks, the scientist is forced to engage enemy combatants head-on and is going to receive more concentrated fire (while he can close the gap, jumping away from his allies removes any healing or a chance of revival for them).  Despite these flaws and certain variant specific issues, the scientist is a fine offensive substitution in comparison to the sunflower.

[craigdominic]

I mean, I get what you're saying but the teleport is used to get the scientist close enough in the first place. Once they do, depending on the sunflower you choose it's game over. Same with the long range scientists whose hit-damage doubles when they get closer.

It does seem that towards the end of each games cycle they gave the sunflowers a boost which I appreciate. If there's a third I hope they don't revert it back to launch status

[PC20XX]

Directly comparing one class to another can lead to skewed results because the way the game is designed, not every plant has an identical zombie counter.

What I mean is the following (based on core variants in GW1)...

Sunflowers have a mid/far range attack, unique heal beam, unique sunbeam, and heal station. By default, a good healer to have in the mid/far range to assist partners.

Scientists have a close range attack, heal station, unique warp, and sticky mines. By default, a good healer to have in the front lines or 1v1 plants.

Cacti have unmatched sniping (far attack), potato mines, drone, and shields. A good tactical sniper to provide cover.

All Stars have unmatched arched suppression (close/far), short range bomb, unique tackle, and shields. A good tank to have around.

Chompers have a close range attack, stun, unique burrow, and unique ambush trap. A good tank to have around the front lines or 1v1 zombies.

Engineers have a splash attack, stun, drone, and quick mobility. Usually see as a good (pesky) mid-range sniper to damage multiple plants.

Peashooters have a splash attack, short range bomb, unique gatling, and exceptional mobility. A well-rounded front line fighter to take care of all sorts of trouble.

Soldiers have a mid/far range attack, unique decoy/trap, rooftop mobility, and a unique ZPG. A well-rounded tactical DPS to get things rolling.

So, if you're a sunflower and you're having trouble against scientists... you're either pushing yourself too much into the front lines, not healing/reviving and making others want to protect you, or you're being too predictable in some aspect.

It takes work to be good with Sunflower, but if you're good with her, you're essentially good with most of everyone else in GW. (Though, it'd be nice if they give her (and probably healers in general) buffs that encourage healing between teammates instead of self-sufficiency. Kinda like adding an extra 25 hp to whoever she's healing with her heal beam that deteriorates after a few seconds.)

[StuffyLuffer]

I always prioritize healing/revives when playing scientist and sunflower. I don't play too aggro with them, mainly staying close to my team and healing up any damage they have taken. On scientist, I always run heal beam and mega heal bomb for even more healing efficiency.

[Anonymous]

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@bobburgers6

I agree. The sunflower, in particular Stuffy Flower who despite the nerf I still find the most effective in her class, can definitely hold her own against the Scientist, but of course, it all depends on the map. I use her aggressively and successfully in maps like Coliseum and Moon Base Z (in Turf Takeover) while on the other hand, she is particularly vulnerable in maps like Aqua Centre and Seeds of Time (in Turf Takeover) that - for the most part - encourages close-quarters combat (I personally find Kernel Corn or Stock Pea preferable here).

[UmbralTremor]

Agreed that Scientist pretty much eclipses Sunflower. Astronaut with Heal Beam + Heal Bomb is better than the standard Sunflower set-up, because you are trading the borderline useless sunbeam (And now 10 HP) for Warp, a vastly more useful ability. The 10 HP difference can be partly ignored because 90% of the Sunflower's hitbox is her head so she eats more crits than the Scientist.

On top of that, Scientists have real options, like the aggressive shotgun variants and the possibility of taking Heal Station (combined with Heal Bomb and you can do insane AoE healing really fast). The only stand-out for Sunflower is the Vampire variant and that just ate nerfs.

[pandareno1999]

What I find interesting is that a team of AI sunflowers will roll a team of AI scientists handily and consistently.  It could be due to differently programmed behavior - compare the heal weed to the heal zombie, for example.  The heal zombie is a loyal lackey, while the heal weed laughs at you and goes their own way.