Is this the Plants vs Zombies we remember?

[jinco1993]

I remember a time when Plants vs Zombies had original and creative ideas which would not only improve the game but made it fun. 

Unfortunately this new neighbourhood version of the game is so far from that. 

- The Maps are very poor 

- Characters need a overhual 

- Gameplay mechanics need to be changed 

- The game just feels awful 

- The game modes need to be looked at

- Customisation is woeful 

Now I am not a game designer in anyway shape or form but I do know a lot about Plants Vs Zombies. The last two games, I put hundreds of hours in, I loved gaining new gear to make each character look unique as well as selecting different class for each character for example ice cactus, fire pea and so on. 

You had customisation packs which were class not pay 30,000 coins for one piece of gear, who's ever idea was that should have there head tested in my opinion because it takes so much creativity and mystery out of the game. 

The maps are so poorly designed, looks at the other two games I would say there maps not only looked better but played better aswell. Both zombies and plants could win. These maps now seem like they have been put together with no care and attention. Part of the game espeically when playing turf takeover is making it differcult for the attackers and allowing the defenders to have advantage points, this does not happen  its now full of pathways and millions of ways to get around. Other games modes such as gnome bomb, team vanquished, vanquished confirmed and surburbination as basically no exsistant now and no fun to play. 

The characters have good variety but again have been ruined by not thinking. Snapdragon, space cadet, superhero well you don't stand a chance. Take a look at the old two games, yes the superhero was too good but you could still win. In this game now you might aswell leave if you're against 2 or snapdragon. The characters need to be rethought interms of abilities and what they offer but I love the variety. There was no need to change current abilities of characters from the other games. 

This brings me onto my next point why is there a sprint button in the game??? This removes risk for players when they dive in and make some abilities worthless like the chomper burrow move, you could use this both attack and escape and look at the pea shooter his greater thing was how mobile he was and now that has gone. The question is why try and fix something that doesn't need fixing??? 

Also we don't need a pay to win element so don't get any ideas.

There are alot more points I have and honestly I want PVZ to continue and I firmly believe a redesign is needed to move forward to create the game we used to know and love to increase player base as well as getting players to come back.

Would be amazing to hear everyone's opinions and remember this is also my opinion. I truly think the community for this game needs to stick together to push the game to the next level. 

[benn1nat0r]

While I respect your opinion, I can't find a single thing to agree with.

In my opinion, BfN captures the feel of the original PvZ a lot better than the GW games.

It is true that BfN has less content, but that is only due to the fact that EA cut their funding significantly.

Shaun Laker once said their plan was to replace the variants with more original characters. Dataminers found a list of characters they planned on adding. Iceburg Lettuce was the first one on the list and it was far into development, but ultimately scrapped. Because the had so few resources, they couldn't follow their vision and we were left without a substitute for the character variants. In my opinion, however, the characters we got make more than up for it. Every character feels way more unique and has a more appealing, bright & colorful design that reflects the style of the original PvZ very well.

Some other points:

• BfN doesn't have pay to wi elements, unlike GW2 (only the legendary upgrades in Rux, but they can be earned for free in the prize map. GW2 has extremely op legendary variants that need to either be purchased, giving you an unfair advantage, or earned through a ridiculously long grind)
• Basically every point you make is highly subjective. I respect your option, but say mine is the complete opposite. I love the maps, especially Preserve pastures. Customization is the best it has ver been in the entire franchise, the characters are original and creative, the soundtrack is best in class and the game modes are carried over from the previous entries of the series, so why would they need to be looked at?

[TheSprinter85]

On this topic, I am on both sides of the fence here. BFN has actually been my favourite PvZ Shooter that I have ever played, however I ended up having more awesome memories of GW2. 

BFN added more awesome ways to revive, new mechanics, pretty awesome characters and much more. However, GW2 had damage drop off, some unique events like Boss Hunts which I loved, more Ops content, Rux was easier to get items from and so on.

While BFN is my favourite shooter, it does have its issues and bugs. GW2 has its advantages. 

Hopefully all this will be considered if another shooter is made.

[Shadowphinx101]

@jinco1993 I will say this. GW2 had much better design styles and there was more variety. BFN takes a bigger step. I hated the customisations in GW2, they were generic and there was lots of fillers. BFN makes it more fresh. I think if the overall bugs in BFN were properly fixed, it would have a much better quality overall. Just the general UI interface, icon designs and the health bars and regen in BFN is much better. Especially since spotting icons don't exist in that game. Those nitpicks are the only positivies to BFN. Apart from that, it is the lack of diversity in the game.

[jinco1993]

Hey, 

On the characters front I wasn't saying there were any bad additions, I was suggesting there are characters which are so over powered and it makes the game less enjoyable because there is nothing you can do. In GW2 there was no sprint mechanic which meant if you messed up well basically you died because you couldn't escape so everything you did had to be more calculated. Even some abilities you could use in both attack and defense. Look at the chomper you can sprint just slightly slower than he can borrow for me that doesnt make sence. Interms of colour of characters no issues for me they all look good. I do agree with the customisation it did feel towards the end I would just just get diamond and gem versions but it didn't cost 30k coins to get some cool looking stuff which is my issue. As previously mentioned its more to do with balancing and abilities. 

If you look at GW2 you could be a recruit with basic abilities and still give a super elite a challenge because it was more based on how you shot and how you used the environment. 

GW2 yes did have a pay system.but was never pay to win. I didnt spend a single penny and would use a variety of characters excluding legendary because I didn't have any and I would comfortable finish top in most of my games. So I agree pay to win was there but really you didn't need it if you were able to play smart. 

Stuff like soundtrack litterally no issue. But maps and stuff feel rushed. Look at the GW2 maps for turf takeover they were class and made that specific game mode fun and hard to win.

Game modes need to be look at because you can add more stages in rather than 4. I get this speeds up games but the idea of that mode was for it to take a while. 

While I get budget challeneges I feel overall it was rushed. I would like quality over quantity.

[jinco1993]

Hey, 

I agree it is a fantastic shooter. But same as you more awesome memories from previous games

I agree they added a few new features which are good. Like the healing much better. I do feel they have tried to change too much aswell compromise on characters.

Just wish they kept the different characters like fire and ice adds more elements to the game and different ways to play. 

Definitely agree they need to consider some of the comments for the next game. This game has so much potential to succeed. 

Just don't want them to produce games like COD which ruin it every year but are now learning from there mistake.

[jinco1993]

Hey, 

Yes agree it has taken a bigger step but they could of definitely taken stuff from the other game rather than mess with so much.

Agreed with customisation fillers definitely this wins hands down on that. Gameplay is much smoother an AI is so much better. As you say needs more diversity.

[benn1nat0r]

@jinco1993 Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts on the games ! I really appreciate having a nice discussion and when opinions are shared without any insults, like I tend to encounter on other platforms when looking at PvZ discussions. I will try to further explain my views in return:

The positive stuff I mentioned

I added some points I thought were positive (like the soundtrack), because you didn't mention them and I always like to talk about the good and bad at the same time.

Pay to Win in GW2

Baut the pay to win system I still somewhat disagree, I feel like GW2 took it too far. It was fine in GW1 and is non existent in BfN, while GW2 added a lot to it with the legendary variants. Just looking up stuff like Toxic Brainz or the Pre-Order Z7 mech makes me feel bad. They literally have you one of themes op characters in the game for buying the deluxe version, so I wouldn't say zit isn't bad. Trying to unlock them just by playing would take ages. During that time, you would get less Xp and coins by playing, as you wouldn't get as many coins without the legendary variant. Therefore, it clearly gives you an unfair advantage. There#s actually a pretty big lawsuit going against EA for pay to win mechanics in there games. The lawsuit features a long list of games and GW2 is the only PvZ shooter mentioned in it.

Sprinting

As I said before, a lot of the other things are very subjective and I prefer BfN in nearly every way.

I don't think the sprinting mechanic is bad. In the beginning it used to be, as there was no limit to it, but now it feels nice. Without it, the game would feel extremely slow and cumbersome to play, in my opinion. I can't go back to the GW games for the missing sprinting mechanic alone. Every 3D game since the last decade has it, so it would be odd not to have in BfN. Especially navigating the free roam regions would be a huge pain without sprinting, as well as the long ways to the objective in Turf Takeover.

Abilities / Max Ranks vs Recruits / Upgrades

I feel like it is very much possible to compete against max ranks who have unlocked all the upgrades as a Recruit. Many of the good upgrades are actually unlocked from the beginning or after the first promotion. You can still play smart and use your environment. While most BfN maps have a lot less verticality, they offer some other unique paths or opportunities to use (for example: many side paths in TT -> On preserve pastures at the first objective, there is a path that looks like it isn't part of the map to the left, which actually can be used. it requires a bit of platforming, which I like). Team Play is also way more emphasized in BfN, which means you will also perform better by playing your character as intent, whereas all classes felt similar in GW2. You could literally play Sunflower and Scientist as attack characters by themselves, with certain variants making this much worse (granted, BfN has the Steam Blaster legendary upgrades)

Variants vs Upgrades

I thought I would touch this subject, as it is frequently brought up when discussing GW2 and BfN. The devs actually listened to the community and tried to add a lot moe legendary upgrades, after they realized they couldn't introduce as many unique characters. Datermienrs found nearly finished legendary upgrades for: Soldier, Acorn & Oak, Snapdragon, Imp, Peashooter.

Personally, I prefer having fewer characters and variants (legendary upgrades), as it enabled them to balance the game more easily. I know it took a while and the balancing had many downs and not so many ups, but after the final update it is mostly balanced. BfN is now the only balanced PvZ shooter with active anti cheat measures being taken.

Maps

You guessed, I don't think there are problems with them. I get that using the same maps in multiple modes can feel like the devs wer lazy, but I think it adds to the theme. The maps are part of Neighborville and by including them in all modes, I really get the feeling that it is the "Battle For Neighborville". Of course, more maps would have been nice. I really like the unique maps that were added (Tourist Trap Island and PreservePastures for Turf Takeover; Oozevoir for Team Vanquish)

BfN being rushed

I totally agree. There were many rumors before launch. Some believe that contributed to the game being rushed, but in a tweet 2 years ago, Shaun Laker said they wanted to do Community Test Phases like BfN's Founder's Edition for future titles. I wish they had been able to release the game with a proper Ops mode and a few more maps and bug fixes, but we can't change what happened. There was so much stuff to come, but EA pulled the plug. I believe BfN was cancelled in June. Skate 4 was announced in June and the Team is now working on it. There are a few more facts that support this theory.

[jinco1993]

Hey, 

While I understand you need to include postive and negative points when discussing, however I feel there are few positives.  

Yes the soundtrack is good, graphics are good, colours are good, how they move it good but for me that is it. 

I get the neighbourhood feel and a very good point. I wasn't asking for random maps, I like it when a game takes the general play area and encourages in the maps. However, turf take over maps selection is poor and the games are way to short.  GW2 Gardens and graveyards was insane and canage all the time with the well designed maps which benefited both teams. They could of designed much more entertaining maps for me with much more going on for example the Dock map you could have ships moving around or cranes moving boxes making that environment more interactive like many of the maps on GW2 .

The last few days of playing turf take over has been hell, the same few maps which are so boring, team balancing is horrid and there is no character diversity. Every player is either a mushroom, snapdragon and pea shooter and you have very few of the others because they are not good enough and for the zombies well electric lady, superhero space cadet and again very few of the others. I loved the chomper in the last game however he is litterally pointless in this game, you can sprint as quick as he burrows. The whole idea of having to charge your ranged attacks with pirate and cactus doesnt make sence. The fact the cactus has radid fire when no aimed in is a joke. 

When I mentioned about variations of characters I don't think I was clear, it adds a different dynamic in how to play, do I go for commando pea who is has rapid fire or do I go for agent pea for extra critical damage. Those details made all the difference in some games and definitely added to a more positive and creative fight between the teams. 

I feel like we will always disagree on sprinting. I just feel rather than add sprinting just increase movement speed slightly so it doesn't feel slow. GW2 didn't have a sprint mode and the overall movement was fantastic, I never felt it took ages to get into battle and I could move around easy. Sprinting only adds to fast game play. You can achieve this by slightly increase basic movement speed. As previously said the chimper suffers so much because of this mechanic. You sprint pretty much the same speed as a burrow which means even hard to get kills. Also adding sprint removes any sort of risk when jumping in. Alao look at the maps in GW2 no sprint no problem could get back into the fight in 10 seconds in this game its 10 seconds plus with sprint theybhave increased map size again something that didn't need to be changed. Take call of duty for example they added exo suits for extra movement and that back fired, if you look at the game now its going back to what worked l, they learnt and its been much lore successful than previous games. 

The law suit with EA is being dealt with and as you can not going well as fifa every year manage to get away with it. While I get the pay to in previous games look at this game to get a new character you either have to grind out for ages  to afford them or buy them using actual cash. In GW2 they had sticker packs which cost 15k coins for like 8 cards in this game its 1 item for 30k how is that justified.

The one thing I will say look at the player base left on this game is basically empty. GW2 I was playing for 3 years plus and still had full games and no issues finding decent games. For the great looks and improvement to characters looks and graphics the game has really dropped off considering its not been around for two long. 

The upgrades and abilities never needed to be touched really and few minor adjustments definitely. I agree some characters needed a look at but overall GW2 was more balanced regardless of legendarys , I would go in as most characters and beat other players on this game no chance, the all star know for being a tank dies way to quick this is one example of how the game has changed. The wizard on this is broken, the snapdragon is broken, the mushroom is broken, the superhero is broken. The support characters used to some damage on this game doesn't feel like that and it seems they have to heal and support to do anything  yes I understand support means helping the team but there may be times when your alone and you want to have a chance this game takes that chance away. 

If we look at the pea shooter the hoover attack pointless would much rather the hyper mobile so I can love around jump high. It looks like every character now has range which defeats the points of some characters. Look at the chomper meant to be close and the same as the scientist, yes I will admit the astound was broken in the last game but this game every character has short and long range which is ridiculous and one major change to many. 

But we both agree it was rushed 

[benn1nat0r]

@jinco1993 Again, thank you for sharing your opinion in this much detail. I will try to keep my answer short, as we have discussed most points already. I just wanted to talk about the balancing, as you say there are a few very good characters and the others aren't that great.

Chomper: Yes, Burrow can be evaded more easily, but Grody Goop and Spike Weed have been buffed a lot. If you approach enemies from behind, you can nearly vanquish a large group of Zombies with Grody Goop alone. Then, sprint towards them and finish them with a few normal bites. In addition to this, he has a very strong and precise secondary (long range) weapon that is extremely useful.

Snapdragon: The range is too far, it should be nerfed a bit. Other than that, it is as strong as the other characters. Just take a look at huge enormous Engineer's range is and it even has an upgrade that can be applied to improve it further.

Peashooter: After the final update he isn't the best in class anymore. There are better alternatives now, his main strength is his versatility.

More great characters / abilities: Super Brainz Jump+ Turbo Twister is a guaranteed multi-vanquish; Citron is extremely good, Acorn is a good with the health regeneration upgrade, Imp is an unstoppable beast with the small hitbox and sprinting, armored z-Mech. The list goes on. Every character is great now. The only extremely overpowered ones are Brainium Basher and Steam Blaster.