Dodgy servers [ Edited ]

[DoYaSeeMe]

@apostolateofDOOMWell, what you describe points towards performance issues. I noticed this happening too, I have a pretty awful input lag on my weaker PC lately. I did expect this to happen though, as they keep adding more and more stuff.

Not fast and easy things to do server side . Upgrading servers is super expensive and takes a lot of time. Upgrading network for better stability is even worse. Reducing the number of matches / core can lead to huge jumps in expenses (not sure, but if, for example, there are 2 matches processed per core, the only step below is 1 match / core, and that would mean straight up doubling the server capacity). It's unclear how much more performance can be obtained from optimizing the code further, and if the limits of the currently used engines are almost reached, it takes years to make new engines.

Even if serverside things would be perfect, a client that's not performing well becomes a problem, so optimizations are needed on this end, too. The problem is when hardware limitations are reached, because upgrades are expensive on PC and very limited on consoles.

[apostolateofDOOM]

@DoYaSeeMe They're making plenty of money so they can easily fork some dough out to at least maintain the experience they were providing instead of letting it degrade as fast as they have..

I doubt it's a hardware issue on my end as i have an i9, 32gb ram and rtx on a 144hz monitor with every other game running smooth as butter, including CP2077. I have the closest possible data center selected (which doesn't matter anyway apparently) although i have changed it round and have done checks with my isp with hours going through troubleshooting to optimise it on my end. It's definitely playable but not clean enough to want to practice for ALGS or the like.

Problems mainly started from around S3 and others who i played with noticed issues around then too and have just got worse as time went on. Things like the lifeline delay only started happening after her rework so i' assume it's partly code, servers and/or any number of the @GRiPSViGiLs highlighted issues that were meant to have been improved but evidently not.

[DoYaSeeMe]

@apostolateofDOOM Actually, data center matters, I tried a few distant ones and the matches had a much higher average ping than usual, which proves that the match location is related to the data center choice. I think you only get moved on servers further away when there isn't one close enough, but even that has a limit (probably 100-150ms max).

I'm on an old 6th gen i7, no rtx, but also 32 Gb of ram and running at 60 fps because my monitor limits it. My experience is definitely not ALGS worthy, but now I am wondering whether it's my 60 fps limitation that keeps things pretty stable. I haven't seen the fps going below 55 fps and 99% of the time it says 59-60. Does your fps fluctuate?

As for delays, I think part of them happen because of more checks with the servers. For example, it's possible that the initial way of deploying health drone was with the server just acknowledging, not approving the action. Maybe now approval is also needed, and this automatically adds a considerable delay between the moment you use the tactical key and the moment it's actually deployed. It's more than the raw ping, as buffering ads a few frames' worth of ms to the overall delay. These aren't things that can be easily reverted, some of them are required by recently added features. For example, before Revenant's tactical, server didn't have to check whether Lifeline can deploy her drone or not, but only deciding where to place it (I even remember a few issues with Lifeline's drone disappearing after it was deployed, probably because the server realized there's no room for that drone where it was spawned and cancelled it). Other checks with the server are to prevent certain exploits, which is also something that can't shouldn't be reverted.

[apostolateofDOOM]

@DoYaSeeMe I'm sure it usually will do but what i meant is it's not exclusively to that data center, because of que times or whatever reason.

I spoke to someone on AHQ about them wanting to upgrade from a 60 to 144hz and joked but meant seriously that it wouldn't drastically change their gameplay as the servers couldn't keep up.

I have most graphics set on low excluding a couple of things and run constant 144, I'm not saying there hasn't ever been drops below that but i've never noticed and the counter's always up.

Approving actions instead of acknowledging.. I don't like the sound of this as they have taken something which worked pretty well and effectively broke it. Is there no way they can reduce this delay (spending some money on higher tick servers instead of the 20hz it's been tested as having and known not to be ideal) because hitting a button should give ample time for it to know (if we're talking ms) compared to holding it down and waiting for that visual confirmation on top of the servers and already declared audio and initial animation.. I'll get beamed by an r99 equipped pred in the time it takes for me to know i can pop a bat while my drones out. I want to push a button and know it's going to work. Same with the delay and the door. If that doors shut i don't want to be half way through a bat to be knocked. If that door is shut then i expect maybe a couple ms difference for server and client to send the pidgeons but when it's over a full whole second to finish a quip before the shot comes through, that say's to me something (i don't know exactly what) is really sub par for an FPS and it's not a bottleneck on my end.

Some of these things might not be noticeable to a very casual or even possibly console players on a much lower framerate but it's noticeable on higher end hardware in tougher lobbies. I rarely watch streams but see them have the same problem and with many other complaints i think it's safe to say it's not just me.

[DoYaSeeMe]

@apostolateofDOOMDoesn't sound good, but many hacks and exploits work because the server doesn't do extra checks to prevent them.

To increase the server tickrate from 20Hz to 60Hz simply means to be able to process updates 3 times faster. If Apex would be running on dedicated servers only, this would imply at least tripling the hosting expenses. That would be way too much. For the current hybrid cloud solution that they use now, this would mean requesting way more servers, which would just lead to borrowing them from other data centers a lot more, so much higher average lag. Pretty crappy compromise.

As for server upgrades, we don't know how good or bad they are. The problem is that the better they are, the harder and more expensive it gets to upgrade them. Here's a rough example: you have a 2,000$ PC that can run a game at 120fps tops. Its's highly likely that a 6,000$ PC won't get you to 360 fps and in some cases even spending 60,000 on customization, overclocking and other enhancements won't probably bring it there.

[apostolateofDOOM]

@DoYaSeeMe If the information was being sent one way to confirm an action but now has to send it back and forth leading to a delay and slow response then surely you'd increase the speed in which the information is sent backend as best you could and possible in their power (within acceptable costs) if it's negatively effecting gameplay to a lot of users. It's not exactly a silent issue and i'm sure future updates will continue to add to the problem.

There comes a point if you're a streamer where your old gtx550ti isn't running things smoothly and you know that your hardware can't run a game properly even on low settings anymore and time to fork out a few hundred bucks to upgrade because people don't want to watch a stream at 10fps.. Same can be said of normal users but streamers have an audience just like this game.

They said themselves they expected 200k players but have millions with enough data over past 2 years to know the flow of concurrent and returning players each season. Surely they could say they're aware of these issues and do something to provide a better experience as it's also effecting them in advertisement too with most PC streamers i know of and those that compete in ALGS often showing the problems i mentioned and put others off from investing in the game. It's why i put that upgrade thread up because i personally know hundreds who would love to actually hear that from them, and very likely many, many thousands in all. I even got @MandatoryIDtag with it! (proud moment and salt in old wound)

With such aggressive monetisation that's obviously successful and they still persist in shoving down our throats every collection event which comes across as their main focus with lack of content updates since launch, excluding those few and far between and minor changes, i don't think it's unreasonable to expect a half decent service when just one cosmetic item cost 3/4x the price of a AAA game and the average at nearly 20 bucks that they're obviously selling pretty well, let alone all the rest. Cost and compromise, sure.. but it needs doing now imo.

[OldTreeCreeper]

@apostolateofDOOM playing gold  ranked with youngtree over the last few days on the London server and the lag was horrible at the start of most matches until numbers were down to about 10 squads. It was consistently odd.

Yt was on pc and on my xbox I was getting at least 4 of the red warning indicators.

There was no issue with my Internet speeds! 

[apostolateofDOOM]

@OldTreeCreeper Maybe you had mainland European players on the server and experiencing packet delays on the border due to brexit? 

My solo rank grind was awful this season. At times it's reasonable playable but the game just feels sluggish, bloated and frankly horrendous on the whole now. I honestly don't mind these things in most genres but FPS i want quality and responsiveness above anything pretty and shiny.

[OldTreeCreeper]

@apostolateofDOOM it's probably all those customs forms they have to fill out that's causing the lag 

As an interesting side note the kc games I played recently when it started again, had a very fast and fluid feeling, with no lag and were a joy to play. 

I have often wondered if latency can build up in a server, much like it can on a WiFi extender or router. The simple solution there is to unplug the extender for a few seconds and then plug it back in, good to go. If not a quick reset does the job. 

Anyone know if servers need defragmentation? Have to do that on youngtree's pc after every update to keep it running smoothly. Minor defrag every update, defragmented files only, major defrag every 2 months or so, complete drive defrag, using defraggler not the windows one. Game files are on a seperate drive to the os. 

[BlinkxzAi]

@Br0kenPiece Game is so broken even the character selection screen bugs out lagging