Can we have a serious discussion about the nemesis system?

[painisawarning]

Can we discuss that dumpster fire that is Grid Legends nemesis system?

@EA_Kent @CM_TGK 

The current implementation does not work. Design wise and code wise.

In theory, the design sounds OK - you make enemies during races, so next races become harder.

Unfortunately, there are some ugly side effects to this... because the nemesis you make bleed to other game modes - including weekly/monthly challenges, multiplayer and the race creator.

Why should you ever be penaltized in multiplayer? With bots attacking you on sight? Or why should your challenges get way more difficult, with agressive AI in your way? (AI shouldn't be even present in weeklies/monthlies, but that's a different design issue).

If you really want this system to stay in the game, please isolate it to story and career modes, nothing else.

The second part is, that whatever was planned for that nemesis system, is not working anyway, because of the bugs.

Not sure how it was even supposed to work - after how many races the nemesis status would go away?

As we all know, right now the status never goes away, it only temporary vanishes after 1 minute of event start, and will come back if you even drive too close to them. 

After the event is finished, it just resets and everyone is your nemesis again.

There's no information in the game, who is your nemesis and who is not. The pre-race start screen shows nothing. The post-race screen shows that everyone is your nemesis, so both screens are useless here.

I think CM should really consider reverting to GRID 2019 nemesis system.

It would cure LOTS of headaches here. At this point, I don't care about this 'immersion' this new system is supposed to provide. It's just infuriating when your teammate tries to kill you on the start/finish straight, every time.

If you want this system to stay, then there's lots of work to be done here - nemesis status needs to be curable (looking at you, Manzi), the information about who is your nemesis should be present before the race. If someone ceased to be your nemesis, this info should also be provided on the post-race standings screen.

[CM_TGK · Accepted solution]

Thank you for your feedback on the Nemesis system.

We have identified a bug whereby the Nemesis state of AI wouldn't properly decay between races, as intended. This has been resolved internally and will be updated alongside DLC 4.

From that update, if an AI isn't antagonised during the closing stages of a race, there's a good (60%) chance the Nemesis state of that particular driver will be forgotten.

[Danteska]

•  In theory, the design sounds OK - you make enemies during races, so next races become harder.

Shouldn't this be the other way around on paper? Nemesis only for the current race?

• (AI shouldn't be even present in weeklies/monthlies, but that's a different design issue).

Umm, I've done a few weeklies/monthlies so far and none of them had AI...

• The second part is, that whatever was planned for that nemesis system, is not working anyway, because of the bugs.

I'm not sure I understand how it's supposed to work. If I overtake from too close from behind, the driver becomes my nemesis. If I overtake them too fast or too close from the side, they become my nemesis. Without touching them at all, several drivers can become my nemesis at once on a single corner with a single overtake...

[Trigsby]

At this point if they aren't going to fix it, we need an option to disable it. It's making some of the career events unplayable.

[painisawarning]

@Danteska If this worked 'as intended' then it would make some sense - driving like a * and creating nemesis left and right would make the current race, and few next races more difficult. So you are somehow rewarded for driving clean.

Unfortunately, it's really easy to create nemesis just by accident (they love to crash right in front of you, and then you tap then during evasive action and boom - nemesis), and every time you make enemies, they stay like that forever, in the current version of the game.

Regarding weekly/monthly - I remember at least 3 different challenges being just races against the whole pack of angry AI - and I don't even play all the challenges... I must admit that lately it seems like there's more pure time attack events, so maybe it's a good sign.

AI becoming nemesis because of driving too close is not really a nemesis creation. They started the race already being your nemesis, then after 1 minute they turn from red to black, pretending to be normal. And in this state, they are super sensitive, even a clean close overtake will trigger them.

It does not really matter, because they'll be a red nemesis on the start of the next race, and it continues forever.

[TheRealJony]

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@Danteska wrote:

• (AI shouldn't be even present in weeklies/monthlies, but that's a different design issue).

Umm, I've done a few weeklies/monthlies so far and none of them had AI...

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The recent Weekly and Monthly challenges in July are Time Trials with infinite laps, so that's why there are no AIs.

Last month there were a mix of Weekly and Monthly challenges that consisted of Electric racing events, Time Attack events, and Stadium Trucks racing events. All of which had AI opponents in them.

Only Time Trials do not have AI opponents in them.

[painisawarning]

Everyone who for some reason thinks that weeklies/monthlies are just some nice hotlaps - feel free to check the current challenge selection

I think the monthly is just the perfect example of how to NOT do this.

[painisawarning]

@EA_Kent @CM_TGK 

Can we PLEASE have some answers here?

Nemesis system is broken from day 1 and with every patch you guys seem to tweak the system a bit.

I have no idea what are you trying to do, but the system is still broken.

Patch 3.3 changed one big thing - for some reason, my teammate is not in nemesis state anymore, so at least that's one less driver trying to kill me on the 1st lap.

Did some tests today, in PRO/Touring, played the first two events few times.

The current loop looks like this:

1. The race loads, on pre-race standings screen noone is marked as nemesis

2. I start the race, and immediately I'm notified that drivers A, B, C , D and E are my nemesis (top middle screen)

3. Minimap becomes visible, and I can see way more red/nemesis cars than the 5 mentioned on the start. 

4. After 1 minute, all red/nemesis cars suddenly become black/normal cars

5. You can retrigger any of the red-turned-black cars just by driving close to them (no contact needed). If you do, they will remain in the red/nemesis state until the end of the race

6. Race ends and on the post-race screen I can see that EVERYONE except me and my teammate are both my rival and nemesis (purple + red icon)

I can run the same event again, or a different event as many times I want, the loop stays the same. 

It does not matter if I drive like a maniac or do not make any contact for the whole event. Every new race starts from point 1

Another funny thing - if after the race starts I open the menu and press 'restart race', I'll get more drivers mentioned during step 2. So it seems like restarting a race breaks the system even more.

Currently, there's no way of tracking who is your nemesis and who is not. Pre- and post-race screens are useless, both displaying false information.

There seems to be no way of getting rid of nemesis AI

Your racing standards are completely irrelevant.

Maybe we need to have another option in the menu, one that would reset the nemesis state of all AI?  Just like you handled the yellow markers?

[T16R0N]

The only good part of the Nemesis system is that it at all present in the game. There is nothing even close in any other racing game now. Though the implementations is eh... far from being perfect.

I am just wondering, how shall you drive to make the whole pack of 20 cars you nemesis? Crash them all like hell?! Or it is me who drive so carefully.

Don't get me wrong. I also get Nemesis opponents. And sudden triggering by just passing by. Maximum 3-5 in a race. But I don't remember that the whole pack was chasing me trying to kill me. 

Somehow they get calm down over time. Though I hove no idea how it actually works.

Even in nemesis state the opponents are very light on you. Yes, they maybe try to ram into you more (that is worse for them). But they will also ram you even without nemesis, just because you are on their way (and become Nemesis after that). In fact the only nemesis feature that I noticed so far is that if nemesis AI is right one position behind you (even relatively far enough in time), it will try to attack and overtake you by pushing you out. But if there is any other normal opponent between you, it, most likely, will never make it.
So, it is not that much of a problem, until you actually made the whole pack of 20 opponents you personal nemesis on purpose.

I would say the DEVs should address two main problems with Nemesis system:

1. Leaking the nemesis status to other game modes (especially into on-line races)
2. Make some solution for extreme cases, when too much opponents are on nemesis state

By the way, question. If driving a non contact races (like Drift) or single time attack without opponents can calm nemesis down? How many such events are needed?

[painisawarning]

@T16R0N As the nemesis status never goes away, it's easy to accumulate the full grid of nemesis drivers.

Only trigger 1 or 2 per race, and after 15-20 races everyone hates you. Forever.

They do not calm down. Ever. I already descibed the issue in detail, many times.

[T16R0N]

@painisawarning Well, I have around 60 races already in all modes (story, career, online) and I don't have the whole pack running after me yet.
That makes me wonder if I am a very careful driver?