Bfn's snipers: flawed, frustrating, weak, and dissapointing [ Edited ]

[stukapooka]

Snipers in bfn are held back by the games very own design.

1. Map design

They are hurt by the turf map design in that the points in every map are blocked off by walls and structures that obscure their vision or reveal their position too much.

The new spawns allow the attackers to get shot quickly regenerate and shoot back at the sniper with little fear of retaliation.

The payload itself also allows players to hide out of sight while advancing the objective effectively rendering them useless.

For non snipers the new overwatch style spawn also allows them to be a greater nuisance with drones as they can hide away in a corner with no threat of being found like in gw and can release their drone to wreak havoc from air strikes without worrying about any form of retaliation to themselves.

Every one remembers the pre nerf eggsplosion right?

The sprinting sections of bfn turf are full of winding uneven areas where no combat usually take place and the paths are cluttered and short which does not benefit a sniper especially since the spawn system will move enemy attackers past these sections and outside of the objective area. Peachy district is a terrible offender of this.

The long sections of turf maps where sniping is favorable are filled with cover that can easily be sprinted to or offer alternative  pathways where the sniper will not be effective.

For the sake of comparison these long open areas existed in gw1 & 2 favoring snipers but this was counterable by the use of teleporters eliminating the need to cross open area and put yourself at risk. Great white north, cactus canton, Main Street roads, and walnut hills suburbian objectives (everything before the estate) and finale have several of these areas that allow for great sniping positions and view range.

On team vanquish maps you also have the problem of 3 way map design at its worst because the sniper can only watch one route at a time allowing enemies to easily sneak up on them for an easy vanquish and due to their lackluster killing potential are now only a detriment to their team.

The center of certain non turf maps also hurt snipers as there is a lack of range for them to take advantage of the number of players there such as oozevoir and colossal fossil with the ooz and covered areas blocking potential shots.

In battle arena the 1st map has a covered spawn and multiple flanking options that allow enemies to easily sneak up and eliminate the sniper, again making them more of a detriment to their team than a help with how easy they are to defeat in combat.

Any class with 100 health or more in arena will most likely need to have already taken damage for the cactus to eliminate them from the match or the sniper will need to rely on their teammates to finish the job.

The arena is also mainly close quarter which will work against the snipers due to their lack luster cqc capabilities compared to every other class in the arena.

Verticality is another crippling factor to snipers in bfn maps as the low verticality makes poor use of their new abilities to get to higher positions as invisible barriers are rampant on buildings and natural ledgings (goopy gully is horrible with this) preventing snipers from putting their vision to good use with this lack of high ground and with items positioned in bfn and the jump height now allows every class to get onto the high ground which butchers the chance of the snipers finding unique territory to use to their advantage, such as cactus being able to stack tallnut barriers or using her drone to climb/fly to once unreachable areas the cliff ledges in cactus canyon, zombopolis junkyard, and boats in driftwood shore represent this creativity well.

2. Their own weaknesses

They are easy to spot and avoid with the bright glow revealing their position (ok how the heck does a cactus glow when scoped popcap?) Alongside the fact that every shot they fire leaves a noticeable trail in the air for the enemy team to follow.

Cactus is extremely vulnerable when it comes to escaping conflict up close as unlike deadbeard her new flying ability is slow and leaves her defenseless unlike anchors away which can be used faster and even damage opponents.

Potato mines now also produce a red flashing light from the attena which gives away their position and from an opponents perspective, am I the only one who feels this ability is armed a little fast from when the cactus drops it to when it explodes? Flashing potato mines were also stated by gw devs to be left out for the nightime maps to not be easily seen so make of that as you will for the lack of nightime maps in bfn.

Deadbeards barrel blast is now destroyable so even if he arms it he can still be gunned down or broken out before he can attack and chomper can now swallow him regardless so chomper is a bigger threat and can easily neutralize him and with his low health and lack of barrel armor he will most likely be gunned down before he reaches his target.

Field of vision is narrowed into tunnel vision when scoped and while their is an upgrade for this, their vision is still lacking and makes them extremely easy to sneak up on.

The fully charged shot from these 2 does not take down their enemies effeciently and with Overheal even smaller enemies who would die in one shot can escape with relative safety thanks to sprinting.

Their non sniping weapons are poor outside of extreme close range and can easily be outperformed by every other character in these ranges.

Deadbeard especially due to the shotgun reworks has to effectively shove his gun down his opponents throat to stand a chance.

Side note: does anyone else hate how pathetically weak sniper bots are in bfn as they constantly shoot uncharged shots that don't do jack squat to the enemy?

3. Enemies and abilities

The new designs of classes in bfn hurt the snipers by allowing those sniped to easily escape through ability spam.

Zombies

Superbrainz: gets shot once, pops shield and runs toward enemy or to safety. Can also use branium basher to get out of the way or hyper jump thump.

Engineer: gets shot once and pops heavy helper for slight cover or uses double time to speed away.

Scientist: gets shot once and spams insta warps to get away, heal and returns to combat.

Imp: dies but if body shot or missed, he will start jumping like a madman or uses his low sprinting animation to get away.

All star: tanks the shots and uses sprint tackle to get to cover or spams shield to block the shots and shoot back.

Deadbeard himself: countersnipe or anchors away to cover.

80s action hero: dynamite dodge to cover or tank shots, flick shots on cactus then delete them with missiles, or just shoot them twice with your own charged shots.

Space cadet: transform for health, use laser to snipe back, or use gravity smash to throw off aim.

Station: shield spam and accurate shots.

Electric slide: outta fight spam intensifies.

Soldier: stink cloud or rocket jump to escape.

Wizard: potion invincibility or costar onto the nearest ally target.

Tv head: usually armored and has resistance and can just send his imp to find you and with his respawn system death isn't too big of a concern. Not too mention he can blend in with the regular ai and other tv heads.

Plants

Peashooter: bunnyhopping intensifies.

Sunflower: spams sunny side up to heal from shot.

Cactus: propeller to try and throw off aim but usually dies given that its slow.

Corn: shogun to protect face and can husk hop away to safety.

Rose: activates enigma and laughs at the pathetic deadbeard from across the map.

Nightcap: spams invisibility abilities to avoid shots and even protect allies from deadbeard.

Acorn: dash to cover or use the sap jump.

Oak: can tank several shots without worry and can be supported with health.

Snapdragon: can kill in a few shots and harass with flame and get away with swoop slam.

Citron: step 1. Activate shield. Step 2. Win. But in all seriousness he can protect multiple allies and himself from multiple sniper shots and survive the most out of any class, giving him a greater chance of escape.

Now excuse my years of gaming experience but shouldn't a slow massive target with high health be a character that should be vulnerable from high-powered range attacks?

Not too mention citron is able to regenerate health behind his shield and dash out quickly.

Wildflower: same as tv head but with dandelion.

Now for the one plant character who baffles me for why he is so stupidly good at range: chomper

Who decided that a character who is already strong with a close melee range that has high damage and health should also have a straight and infallible ranged attack that is able to TWO shot snipers with halitosis and splash damage, even superbrainz has to charge his attack and it can only go a certain distance.

Why, just WHY is this character so stupidly effective at range with an infinite ammo ranged attack with no cool down that can kill just as effectively with this against his opponents as any sniper playing against unresponsive opponents. Not to mention it even deals splash damage so chomper doesn't have to be entirely accurate with his shots.

Burrow also allows him to avoid shots and safely approach to either swallow or goop deadbeard for a safe and efficient kill putting himself at no real risk.

4. Sprinting, Overheal, and fall off.

Now remember every class I mentioned above can also sprint to safety with high jumping ontop of all the mobility and defense their abilities already give them.

Sprinting gives every character the same movement speed so foot soldier can escape just as fast an imp or an all star.

Bfn also gives upgrades that can heal characters and refresh their abilities giving them a substantial cool down on their get out of jail free abilities.

In gw certain characters had differing movement speeds and without sprinting a large tank charcter such as all star had to move carefully to avoid being shot down by cactus as sprint tackle was the only ability that could move him quickly to cover and he had to stand directly behind his shields to be protected unlike bfn and scientist had a delay to his warps and his self heals such as the station or heal bomb were delayed or could be destroyed to seal his fate in an intense fight.

Overheal also gives every character the capability to tank more shots with no real possible downside as it still takes time for Overheal to decay after it is applied, allowing teams with capable healers to potentially out heal the damage a sniper may do before they can retaliate and once again its not hard to locate a sniper in bfn.

Fall off: The number one mechanic that should've been in bfn from day 1 that will never see the light off day.

Without fall off every character besides superbrainz can reliably fight snipers from a distance and will most likely win due to their higher fire rate combined with the snipers very low health.

Chomper with slobber shot is by far and wide the worst offender of outperforming snipers at range for no real good reason.

Seriously popcap why is sunflowers beam and scientist's primary the only weapons with fall off in bfn?

5. Snipers and their systems in other class based shooters.

Garden warfare itself.

Strengths: Cactus was designed for a defensive play style that could slow or heavily injure both ai and player zombies in turf, taco bandits, and ops with traps and good aim.

Deadbeard however focused on a offensive sniper play style able to defend himself better at close range (though his mid range is lacking), had a higher fire rate with less damage, and abilities designed to put pressure on a defending team such as canon rodeo.

The maps in garden warfare played to these characters strengths and as I've mentioned before in map design, the creative players could get to high positions few characters could access.

The drones airstrikes were also perfect for keeping teams off objectives in turf and bombing teleporters which would force attackers to take a more direct and open route to the objective which would put them in the players sights more.

They could even transport other characters by drone to the high ground allowing healers to travel faster to places they may be needed.

Due to the lack of sprint enemies can be caught in the open with no means of escape without abilities.

Weaknesses: Both of these characters were slow which incentivized picking off enemies at range as cactus especially lacked in close range and deadbeard's shotgun couldn't go far.

Now lets get the obvious one Cactus is trying to impress so hard out of the way, Overwatch's Widowmaker.

Widowmaker does her job better because she can reliably drop a fair portion of the roster instantly when charged without relying on her team and she has stupidly good survivability with her grapple, sub machine gun, and mines.

Overwatch is also balanced around the fact that its matches are 6v6 not 12v12 which guarantees widows team will help her by focusing on her targets allowing her to kill them faster or destroy shields to whittle down tanks fast.

Weaknesses: there are heroes who can easily overpower her in cqc in exchange for her high ranged power and certain ultimates provide invincibility which can be used to help push past an area she is guarding.

Shares the glare and traceable shots like in bfn.

Now lets look at the og everyone designing a class based shooter has been trying to capture the magic of, team fortress sniper.

In team fortress classic the sniper could slow his opponents by shooting them in the legs and they could only fix this by being healed by medics, he could also build his charge without tunnel vision, was great at defending himself through his rifles sub machine gun mode (overwatch devs stated tfc was a massive inspiration and its obvious where widow got hers from) and nail gun, grenades which he could also use to blast himself to safety if he was at full health or simply blow up his enemy, and a crowbar melee.

Now his most important aspect was headshot instakilling a class at full charge regardless of health making him a threat his opponents had to respect and the only thing giving away his position and aim was a laser dot that would appear where he was shooting.

Now lets look at his main weakness, the Spy. Spy was designed to counter sniper through disguises, gas grenades that caused hallucinations of gunfire and grenades to appear, and faking his own death to allowing him to instakill the sniper from behind in one blow.

While not perfect and counterable, the spy forced sniper to never stay in one place long and constantly swap positions while aware of his surrondings and occasionally reminding the sniper that he is never truly safe on the map.

Tfc snipers sub rifle mode also used up his rifle rounds and unlike cactus or widow maker, he has to actually replenish this ammo to be effective and without engineers dispenser his only choice of ammo were pickups on map or walking all the way back to spawn.

Good at defense but absolutely horrible at taking objectives.

Gibbing enemies by headshots was an easy giveaway that he was watching an area.

Now lets look at classic snipers spiritual succesor and even the man who killed him, tf2 sniper.

Tf2 sniper changed from his classic counterpart in that he no longer had grenades, he must scope to charge, and his submachine gun is now a second weapon.

His strengths: tf2 sniper is a major factor in tf2's balance because without him the heavy would run rampant because spy can be countered by paying attention to your surroundings and heavy when overhealed has the highest possible health in tf2 at 450 which allows him to tank a level 3 sentry for a fair amount of time.

Sniper in one fully charged shot to the head can deal 450 damage in a shot allowing him to drop heavies before they are ubered to destroy defensive positions on the map.

Enemies can also not hide a fraction of their team behind the payload in tf2 giving him a much better shot at them.

He is a solid medic picker as he can reliably get to them easier than spy and forces them to either uber early or risk losing it or their heal target altogether. Medics regeneration is low and takes time so even if he survives an uncharged body shot he is out of the conflict for a fair time and not healing teamates on the front line. Overheal also fades the moment medic leaves a target so he has to rapidly decide who to heal after they are wounded by a sniper and potentially leave his pocket to their death.

Weaknesses: Spy now has total invisibility (although a good sniper can listen for his footsteps and use jarate) and can use this alongside his disguises to get to sniper safely and most anti spy weapons for sniper leave him without his smg secondary which could reliably do over 250 damage at short range for defense leading to spy just gunning him down in a direct fight.

Must unsocpe to reload.

Ammo is a concern given that he has less ammo than his classic counter part and is farther from resources.

Unlike bfn snipers and widowmaker he cannot regnerate and cannot easily flee conflict once he is backed into a fight.

Despite his immense power at range he is all but powerless against sentries and relies on more direct combat classes to take them out.

Other weapons reveal his position, sacrifice damage for utility, or do not reward headshots with as much damage ie: the huntsman or Sydney sleeper which is a support weapon that cannot give headshots but applies damage buffs for teamates to take advantage of in exchange for faster charge time.

His charge time is three times as long as bfn snipers or widowmakers which can be vital in crucial moments.

Easily recognizable. Every tf2 class was designed from the point of being able to recognize them even if they were just a silhouette from a distance. For sniper he is tall, slim, and has unique poses and body type for every position his class could take in game. Even his voice is distinguishable from every other voice and sound in the game.

Side note: Overheal in tf2 also leaves a visual effect around players that shows it fading or being applied while bfn only shows Overheal through the healthbar above characters. Good snipers learn the difference to know if they can shoot a unfully charged shot and still drop their opponent.

If your wondering why I'm comparing

completely different games, it's to highlight why these games have snipers that suit their games design and balance and why Cactus and Deadbeard have utterly failed in these positions in bfn as most snipers are used as high risk, high reward characters but with how easy it is for opponents to escape in bfn and how the dps of bfn snipers relies on them picking off already injured opponents or heavily relying on teammates to finish the job, they are extrememly lackluster. It feels like they saw the overwatch sniping system but also forgot why it works to an extent.

Tldr: bfn snipers are easily countered and aren't really deadly to begin with.

Phew, that was a long post, I hope you all enjoyed my thoughts and opinions. Please excuse my grammar mistakes.

[Iron_Guard8]

Good points. As usual I largely agree with a few differences here and there.

In GW1, cacti being the only sniper saw them be extremely annoying and often getting vanquish master on G&G matches. They were less of an issue in other game types although very good at defending the taco in taco bandits (a mode I miss as you can't get a match of it on PC anymore, I can get G&G matches but not mixed mode or other specific modes anymore). I'm not a huge sniper fan and never played TF classic but do have over 400 hours in TF2 and Sniper was my least played class, and rocket jumping up on the sniper ramparts in 2 fort as a soldier and wiping out the enemy team snipers was a favorite past time!

I'd say that GW1 maps were a little too open usually and cacti could be a nightmare if they were decent at it. GW2 maps now had to deal with with 2 sniper classes (and variants and of course frozen citron being the best sniper till they nerfed citron's long range damage), and overall I felt snipers worked well there without feeling oppressive. In BfN barring the one guy who somehow gets on top of ludicrously high terrain that I can't seem to get to and never see anyone else do it either (like the really high rocks at the start of goopy gully as a deadbeard), I don't feel the maps are as bad as you report but the charging mechanic is too much like Widowmaker from OW, and I preferred the old style for their weapons. 

The TT maps in BfN are too narrow and lack the fun back and forth fighting we had in GW and GW2 thanks to the change in design, so snipers do lose some value, but they can do well and be effective. I feel the payload has to provide some cover as it already means that your team has to have people on it as often as possible to move it which paints a big target on you, and I've sniped at whatever I can see as they all have gaps to shoot through/over. I'm not a huge fan of the payloads in the first place though, I'd much prefer TT maps like in GW and GW2 instead.

Drones are so slow in BfN and their weapons all feel awkward to use, which is a common issue in BfN combat in general. Potato mines should lose that flashing light (remember when people were concerned that the bling mines were too easy to see in GW2?), the 2 mobility abilities need to work better (anchor's away is better, but like rocket jump and swoop slam the movement and camera of these movement abilities is just off in BfN), and they should revert barrel blast to more like how it worked in GW2 where it was hard to cancel but you could by vanquishing the armored pirate inside (and got bonus xp too). Giving Cactus that Gatling needle like the Bandit Cactus has does help them with close/mid range combat, which they are mostly awful at in GW/GW2 and let them compete there better with Deadbeard's shotgun. My biggest dislike about the snipers in BfN is them using the same weapon that is mostly Widowmaker's rifle instead of having their own unique snipes like the GW games which I vastly prefer.

Overhealing is an issue in general in BfN and is compounded by how powerful healing is, yet a lot of veterans don't like Sunflower as much as the GW/GW2 versions. I know Asabaida left the game partially due to that. If they pull it for the new game, I'd be happy as I don't hate it in TF2, but it's not a huge factor all that often there, where here it is.

As for the scope glow. I actually just watched a YouTube video about why games have that and while I agree it's weird for the cactus as far as why it would exist, it was meant to be mechanic to help spot them as we don't have the sighting icons from GW2. I tend to snipe and move a lot so I can't be caught too easily. As for the reduced view, a lot of games seem to do that when sniping, and it's meant to punish those that aren't aware and spend too much time in their scoped mode.

If they reverted sniping to how it is in GW/GW2, made the mobility abilities better as Cannon Rodeo is another turret mode and we have so many already and the Wall-nuts aren't all that effective, fixed and balanced the drones, and made other QoL changes, I'd be pretty happy with Cactus and Deadbeard in the new game; i.e. GW2 versions with the mobility abilities working fully.

[stukapooka]

@Iron_Guard8 Walnut hills is the worst offender in terms of gw1 maps being too open with cactus being the only sniper, it got worse in gw2 with the new variants and the lack of dead beard and new classes seriously hurts the map for zombies.

Overheal in tf2 wasn't a big factor because it went away faster and it could be countered by spy and sniper. Not to mention that damage is much higher in tf2.

Bfn maps are bad at verticality imo I've jumped onto an area that looks like it could be reached only to slam into an invisible wall way to often. Even some one story buildings in bfn have an invisible wall on them for whatever reason.

Only thing I would argue about tunnel vision is that tf2 and overwatch try and get around this with sniper unscoping to reload and widowmaker having wall hack alongside counter classes that force them to pay attention to their surrondings every once in a while.

People don't like bfn sunflower as much because despite healing being stronger sunflower herself is much weaker and less effective than her gw counterpart, not to mention sunbeam somehow being one of the only 2 weapons in bfn to have fall off for only god knows why.