Re: A discussion about pots, spanwables, and map design for a future game

by stukapooka
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A discussion about pots, spanwables, and map design for a future game

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★★★★★ Expert

An analysis of the pots and bots in garden warfare and how to potentially improve them and add more in the future.

 

Pot analysis with bot counterparts

 

Pea cannon

Health:50

Damage: single shot that deals 20 direct damage and 10 splash damage

Range: long

 

Counterpart: Rocket bot

Damage: 10 damage per rocket in a three rocket burst.

Range: long

 

Gatling pea

Health: 60

Damage rapid fire that shoots 3-4 8 damage peas, 24 damage total.

Range: long

 

Counterpart: gatling bot.

Identical to gatling pea in everyway.

 

Snapdragon

Health:90

Damage: deals 7 damage and applies afterburn damage.

Range: close

 

Counterpart: Mr toasty

Health: 80

Identical to snapdragon in every other way.

 

Scaredy shroom

Health:40

Damage: precise 20 to 35 damage depending on range

Range: long

Gets resistance when hiding that can raise its health to 75 but this seems to be missing in bfn.

 

Counterpart: hide n shoot bot

Damage: 30

Identical to scaredy shroom in everyway. Also appears to be missing resistance in bfn.

 

Bonk choy

Health:80

Damage: in gw1 each punch did 75 damage totaling 150 and they ignored armor. In gw2 they only do 20 per punch totaling 40 damage.

Range: close

 

Monk choy

Damage: 30 per swing equaling 60 total.

bit more health but otherwise the same.

 

Counterpart: boxer bot

Same as bonk choy.

 

Lightining Reed

Health: 70

Range: medium

Has close range burst to defend itself.

 

Counterpart: Mr. Electro

Health:90

Range: medium

Damage: 20

Has no close range burst.

 

Doom shroom

Health: 105

Range: close

Damage: 200 with a 30 second recharge.

Why is he PURPLEISH PINK in bfn?

 

Counterpart: explody bot

For some reason he does 250 damage over doom's 200.

 

Goop shroom

Health: 80

Range: medium

Fires goop that acts identical to chompers ability, however this can not affect coffin, outhouse, and barrel zombies. Screen door, newspaper, and map pirate can also block goop with shields. Bfn uses grody goop.

 

Counterpart: loudmouth bot

Health:80

Range: close

Fires a stun in 10 sec intervals that deals 25 damage and can pierce citrons shield in gw2.

 

Ice peashooter

Health:50

Range:long

 

deals 15 impact and 18 critical and slows zombies down. After a certain amount of hits, he freezes the target in place.

 

Can even freeze coffin, outhouse, and barrel zombies because he shoots them in their weak spots. Only appears in delivery missions in gw2 and not as a spawnable.

 

Counterpart: Mr freezy

Range: long

It fires one shot every half a second three times before reloading, and each shot does 10 damage while slowing opponents. Five successive shots will freeze the target.

Is considered the zombie equivalent of ice peashooter rather than ice shroom.

 

Fume shroom

Health: 70

Range: medium

Can pierce armor. Not helmets.

Deals 6 normal damage per burst in Garden Warfare, and three damage per burst in Garden Warfare 2.

 

Counterpart: breaker bot

Range:medium

Throws hammers that damage plants and also ignore armor and shields.

Each hammer deals 12 damage for a combined total of 24.

 

Toxic gloom shroom

Health:90

Range:close

Attacks zombies by spraying a close-range burst of toxic gas around himself that deals 20 damage and poisons nearby zombies.

 

Counterpart: Mr toxic

Health:90

Range: medium

Can fire ranged toxic blasts that damage and poison plants and is capable of using a close-ranged burst of toxic gas to poison plants around him.

 

Heal flower

 

Health:25. Can die in a single attack from the right browncoat.

 

Heal Flower (ability) lasts 30 seconds and produces 3 sun at a time, 12 times, each sun heals 5 HP. While the potted plant version produces sun slower than the ability version, but never fades, it also produces 5 sun at a time, each sun heals 10 HP.

Can heal itself.

Behaves more like rainbow flower in bfn.

 

Counterpart: dr heals

Health: 75

Cannot heal itself.

Functions similarly to heal station.

 

Bamboo shoot

Health: 60

Range: long range airstrike.

The bamboo shoots rain intensively to a medium area. Each shot deals 15 damage in Garden Warfare, and 8 damage in 2.

 

Counterpart: uplink bot

Range: long range airstrike

Attacks by firing a purple laser into the air that deals 60 damage.

Reveals attack area through purple ray.

 

 Dj uplink bot

 

Deals 80 damage and has more health.

Is extremely visible.





Pots without a bot Counterpart.

 

Ice shroom

Health:80

Range:close

Lets out ice blasts that deal 20 to 25 damage based on distance that instantly freeze zombies. Slow recharge between blasts. Can freeze disco zombie and baron von bats but no other bosses.

 

Fire peashooter

Health: 50

Range:long

Deals 13 impact, 28 critical, and then 5 damage per second for 5 seconds. Does well with ice pea as fire and ice don't cancel each other out.

 

Fun fact:Despite not being a Spawnable Plant in gw2, one appears in the Backyard Battleground to give a mission.

 

Laser bean

Range: medium

Each laser shot deals 7-9 damage.

 

Pea repeater

Health: 60

Range: long

Each pea deals 15 damage.

Bfn pea cannon shoots 2 peas.



Rainbow flower

Health: 25

Only drops one sun drop at a time but drops them at a faster rate than the default version.

 

When compared to the standard Heal Flower, the Rainbow Flower drops 37 sun drops as opposed to the former's 36, resulting in 185 health total.

 

Pros

 

Drops more sun drops than Heal Flower.

 

Neutral

Produces 37 total while heal flower gives 36 total sun.

 

Only drops one sun drop at a time, but at a much faster rate.

 

It and its sun drops are much more noticeable than the standard Heal Flower.

 

Dark flower

 

Health: 350

Laser bursts are fired at the rate of a Pea Cannon. It fires a burst of six shots and deals four to five damage every hit, with a cooldown of 0.6 seconds between each burst.

 

A single burst is capable of causing around 24 to 30 damage.

 

Pros

 

Has very high damage.

 

Is very accurate.

 

Does not make much noise when firing.

 

High health.

 

Can blend well in nighttime maps, unlike the Heal Flower.

 

Loses self-healing ability.

 

Thanks to the pvz wiki for most of this information and please forgive any pitfalls me and the wiki could not give such as certain health or damage estimations.



Spawnables ideas.

 

Credit to halo wars 2 kodiaks and blisterbacks for this idea: artillery pots.

 

Melon pult: a melon pult from pvz with 45 health that is able to fling a melon over objects pots could not normally fire over such as fences or houses much fsther than the rwnge of a bamboo shoot to bombard zombies with a melon that deals 20 direct damage and 40 splash damage however it will be near defenseless at close range as it cannot fire at close range targets. Credit to the Kodiak from halo wars 2

 

Zombie counter part: Mr stinger

 

Fires a total of six micro missiles in a catapult like angle that will bombard an area with 10 splash damage per missile and like the melon pult can target enemies on the other side of fences and housing farther than a uplink bot but defenseless at close range. Once again credit to the blisterback from halo wars 2

 

These ideas are to create more long range characters that aren't uplink or bamboo shoot and still have them be different from each other.

 

Sasquatch imp: fire damage bomb imp from gw2

 

Jack in the box zombie: pvz 1 design with the sound of the box constantly playing but has slower speed than explosive imp yet has more health and more damage.

 

Bungee zombies: ops wave where zombies come down right on player positions and the garden and deattach to attack.

 

Plant explosives that mimic yeti and sasquatch imp.

 

More unique plants to mirror the zombies backup dancers and vampires.



 

Potential buffs to pots and bots.

 

Pea cannon and pea repeater.

 

Revert pea cannon back to gw standard but give him a faster fire rate than repeater and far cheaper to seperate them.

 

Laser bean: piercing effect on lasers to reflect his far more effective pvz 2 counterpart.

 

Bonk choy and boxer bot: gw1 damage and armor pierce must return.

 

Snapdragon and mr toasty: higher damage on top of afterburn, forcing zombies to keep their distance.

 

Fire and ice pea: keep stats the same but give them zombie counterparts.

 

Heal flower: revert back to gw standard. Seems a bit irrelevant in bfn with how powerful regen is. Fix healing in the next game so heal flower is viable again.

 

Dr heals: same with heal flower as his healing isn't worth using in bfn.

 

Explody bot: put damage equal to doom shroom as there is no reason for the damage to be different for no real reason.

 

Doom shroom: make him dark again he sticks out like a sore thumb in bfn.

 

Toxic gloom shroom and mr toxic: give toxic aura to help them between cooldowns.

 

Give scaredy shroom his hiding armor back.

 

Goop shroom can now affect heavily armored zombies better. Same for loudmouth.

 

Bot counterparts to pots without them.



Now the two things that will help pots most of all: Better map and game design.

 

Veterans of the series tend to agree that gw1 has the best maps in the series and I agree after replaying the maps in ops and turf.

 

The pots have more places to be positioned in 1 including vertical positions that can only be reached if the base is being overrun (crash course rooftops) or allow them to shoot owner fences like the park in walnut hills or around corners where bonk choy and doom shroom could get a few vanquishes on careless soldiers such as in driftwood shores second objective. Come on you've been vanquished at least once by the corner choy or shroom at least once.

 

Pots can shoot through multiple gaps in the areas they're in to support other pots allowing them to vanquish browncoats faster.

 

Maps and garden positions are outside and open allowing them to target multiple areas across the map with air strikes.

 

They also had overall more damage as 2 nerfed a lot of them.

 

Bfn fails the pots by having closed, tight, and, seperating map design where they are now alone which leaves them at a  greater disadvantage against the horde.

 

Some of the positions they can be placed are away from action or with walls that block their view. Peachy districts 2nd objective is a good example of them being in awful positions.

 

Regen, Armor, and Overheal also put them at a disadvantage because enemies are even stronger than ever and their blows will not due lasting damage to the enemy or destroy their armor.

 

Reduce the range attack spam! Melee enemies should not be killing pots in single rock throws outside of their range!!! Hero classes already are a hard counter to them in ops they don't need tv heads and rock spam.

 

Thank you for reading this post and feel free to share ideas about new pots, map design, or, potential buffs.

 

Message 1 of 5 (376 Views)

Re: A discussion about pots, spanwables, and map design for a future game

★★★★★ Expert

I remember that Peashooter in the Backyard Battleground although he tells us that he's not actual a Fire Peashooter, but a Peashooter on fire!

I want all these back with more besides and the zombies getting matching bots.

 

In GW1 we have regular Peashooters, Repeaters, and Gatling Peashooters. May be a bit redundant, but I like variety so give us all of them and make them at least somewhat distinct.

 

Pots and bots in BfN just don't work as well as they did in the GW games. I'd like them to be useful without being too good for the defense, or the mobile summonmables too good on the attack.

 

I agree with pretty much everything here and especially:


@stukapooka wrote:
 

 

 

Reduce the range attack spam! Melee enemies should not be killing pots in single rock throws outside of their range!!! Hero classes already are a hard counter to them in ops they don't need tv heads and rock spam.

 

 


Wildflowers and TV Heads need to go; both the playable ones and the AI versions. The player versions are unneeded and  come off just as filler, and the AI versions are mostly annoying. Like you point out, we have heroes, champions, bosses, and the regular ones can throw rocks and such already, bring the regular AI mobs ranged attacks down a bit and we should be good. The summomable mobile AI are focused on melee with the ranged attacks meant mostly for when they can't get to you so they aren't useless in such fights, in BfN the whole paradigm is turned on its ear and them constantly throwing those attacks that throw you around are just aggravating.

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Re: A discussion about pots, spanwables, and map design for a future game

★★★★★ Expert
@Iron_Guard8 The pots should never be too good at defense but they shouldn't be dying on WAVE 1!

Like I said give pea cannon a faster fire rate but give repeater more damage to distinguish them better.

In gw1 I hardly ever saw rock throws or laser unless I was a ontop of an unreachable area, they never used them against pots. In bfn they spam them like there's no tomorrow.

Replayed lunar landing ops for a quest and the gatling peas near the forward defense could turn around and shoot back at zombies at the garden to an extent and they were numerous enough to where they could protect a scaredy shroom from attack and increase their chance of survival despite their low health. All of this is missing in bfn!
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Re: A discussion about pots, spanwables, and map design for a future game

Champion

I really like making use of the Pots, Bots and Summonables in the shooter games, but I do feel that they are underwhelming overall. I nearly never see them get any direct vanquishes, except mostly the explosive detonation ones, the damage output of the Summonables generally are not great, and they are also easy to vanquish. Some of the placement locations for the Pots and Bots are quite redundant (more talking about BfN here), as any Pot or Bot that are placed there are ineffective unless an enemy basically turns a corner. I preferred having more Summonable options in BfN compared to the previous shooters, many of the Summonables available were removed completely in BfN for no apparent reason, giving players less options. It could have been done for simplicity, but having more choices is what I would have preferred. Being able to favourite an amount (up to about 5) of each Pot, Bot and Summonable (seperately) would be useful for those players who would have used specific types of Summonables more often. 

 

Pots, Bots and Summonables should be buffed across the board in my opinion, giving most of them more health, more damage and a faster fire rate would be useful, enough to pose more of a threat to the enemy team, but not enough to easily overwhelm them, as they are not supposed to be excessively strong. Some of the Pot and Bot locations are fine in BfN, but a bunch of the other locations should be changed to prevent Pots and Bots placed in those locations being ineffective. Maybe Pots, Bots and Summonables could slowly, but passively, heal themselves overtime like heroes? They cannot regenerate under normal circumstances, except by a healer character. I have noticed this as even Elder Alchemist upgrade on Wizard does not allow them to regenerate either.

 

If Pots, Bots and Summonables gained better placement locations and general buffs, as well as possibly the slow passive regeneration, that would make Summonables perform better.

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Re: A discussion about pots, spanwables, and map design for a future game

[ Edited ]
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@TheSprinter85Bonk choy in gw1 was a serious threat you had to consider if you were gonna go around corners as I remember the early days of gw1 driftwood shores and so many zombie player dying to bonk choys placed around corners (bfn seems to almost deliberately remove them from corners so he's all but useless) due to how much damage he could do (he could kill practically everything but a full health all-star in a combo), it also helped that he wasn't as loud or vibrant as doom shroom and now he can barely take out a browncoat and it even takes THREE combos to kill an imp with Overheal or the health upgrade.

Now I never see any bonk choys in gw2 and bfn as you might as well be crippling your team if you use one. He and snapdragon are the ones in dire needs of buffs imo as they should practically be able to kill any individual target up close but lack range and crowd control.

We don't even get karate zombies despite the fact that they're in pve and that zombies also get yeti imps while plants get no variantal spawnables in bfn as wildflower and tv head are the only new spawnables and they're a pain to fight.

They definetly need better positioning as the gw games had so many of them in good positions to cover each other that they could genuinely work together well despite being individually weak. Bfn is terrible at this as their terrible positions cause 90% of their fatality rate.

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