For those who cry pay to win

by kaspen2012
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Original Post

Re: For those who cry pay to win

★ Pro

"the cards don't really give you an advantage." But they do give you an advantage, that is the entire point of them and you can view what that advantage is within the game, the cards will show exactly what advantage they provide.

 

"Your play style really is the only thing that helps you live longer." Ability does of course come in to it but that doesn't mean the cards don't give an advantage, two players of equal ability and one has 10% higher damage output than the other who would win?

Message 21 of 30 (1,388 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

★★★★★ Novice
Kaspen I really struggle to understand your thought process on this. For the record I’d put it to you that the majority of people against pay to win are in full time employment and have limited time to invest too, the point is that without micro transactions games wouldn’t be such a grind. You do realise publishers deliberately make things take longer to unlock than would be considered reasonable through gameplay so that you will pay to skip the grind right?

/digression

Anyway, the bit I don’t understand in your thought process on this is summed up in these two quotes from your post “A lot of people don't have time to grind.” followed shortly after by “I mean how boring of a game would it be. If everything was unlocked”. Isn’t that exactly what your getting when you purchase in game micro transactions? You say it would be boring if everything was unlocked, that infers you want to play to unlock things as that gives you a sense of accomplishment (fully agree btw), yet by buying the stuff your skipping that in game process of earning it, surely you don’t find handing over your money that much fun or that rewarding? It’s an over simplification but if you buy a game then throw money at it to unlock things you basically are paying for a game where everything is unlocked, your just paying a lot more for it than you should have to.

It sounds like we want the same thing, games with reasonable unlock times so that casual gamers can actually play the full game. The issue is that will only happen if the publisher cannot make money from it, if they can make it take too long so you will pay to get around it they will. EA know the amount of time to unlock all of their content is absurd. They are deliberately making your games worse to make you pay to skip them, now do you see why there’s all this outrage?

Message 22 of 30 (1,361 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

[ Edited ]
★★★★★ Apprentice

I really don't buy this 'being considerate to players with little time' philosophy - the effect of allowing people with little time and money to burn to buy progression is that it cheapens the feeling of achievement every other player (the majority?) gets from spending time in the game. People want equal rewards for equal effort and there's no way to consolidate that between game time and real money, it needs to be a ubiquitous resource.

I'd think the solution is to design progression such that there is not a huge gap in power between people at different ends of the cards unlocked spectrum and they can still enjoy each match, even if they join after a while of inactivity. And if it takes those people longer to unlock cards , so be it, as long as the game's still fun.

Message 23 of 30 (1,352 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

[ Edited ]
★★ Guide

It seems my previous comments defending EAs decision not to use cosmetic only loot boxes due to what they claim are restriction placed by Lucas Film on visuals is a load of nonsense. They have been there all along and EA lied about it. Watch below to see them already in game but turned off:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klO_5L-vNSM

 

I'd like to hear how they talk their way out of this one. Given this news I think we should not be encouraging EA to balance P2W for minimal adverse effects (as I have previously posted) and push for cosmetic only microtransactions with no gambling. I find myself in a position where I believe I should not be giving EA the benefit of the  doubt as I have tried to (in this thread at least - i think)  cos they keep lying.

 

 

Message 24 of 30 (1,330 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

★★★ Newbie

So I hear a lot of people talk about this, and its always the same argument. How is it not advantageous for players with tons of time to play the game and collect credits, crafting parts, cards, "advantages" versus a player of equal skill level, but with drastically less time to play the game? As it stands now, the game gives "advantages" to players who simply have more time to play the game, ie players without day jobs. Since I work very hard at my job, I realistically only have a couple of hours a day to play the game. This would leave me at a severe disadvantage compared to someone who can play 4-5-6-8 hours a day. I am sure I have ran into players who have played the game for considerably more time than me, yet nobody in any forum or youtube video Ive seen on this topic mentions this.

 

It leaves the casual gamer, "whether skilled or not", completely hung out to dry, in terms of being able to acquire or accumulate some sort of perceived advantage, or star cards, loot crates, or credits, or any of it.

 

Is this not some sort of "TIME = WIN" scenario? Or TIME TO WIN or whatever. Hell, AFKers are currently able to acquire more credits than I can, just by being in a game running in circles, while Im busting my hump boarding ships in port at work every day.

 

I just think, it would be nice for a casual gamer to apply some more money in exchange for time, so they can stay on an equal footing with players who have tons of time to play. If equal footing is truly everyone's concern, why doesnt anyone ever mention this?

 

I believe this is a valid argument as well.

 

Id like to also mention that I currently enjoy this game. Its super fun, and my first experience ever playing a Battlefront game. Ive always played Battlefield, every installment ever created, but never Star Wars Battlefront, so the whole experience is fresh for me and very enjoyable.

 

Just my 2 cents,

Message 25 of 30 (1,281 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

★★★★★ Apprentice

@Ninfasbleak you ever spent 6 hours in line to something only to see someone with money bypass the queue and then thought to yourself 'well that seems fair, they must be too busy to queue up'? - I haven't. Or train 20 hours a week to try out for a basketball team only to find out some rich kid, who only trained 5 hours a week (because they train for water polo 15 hours a week) and has sub-standard skills also made the cut since their parents buy the sports equipment for the whole team? 

Why don't these scenarios seem fair? I think it's because we value and respect the time and effort spent on something more than any other resource, and simply don't accept money (which represents time and effort spent on something completely unrelated) as an equal substitute. 

Of course people with more time have an advantage, but that's the same with anything in life - you put the effort in you get more results, generally. The question is we generally don't like people fast-tracking with money, so why is this being a game any different?


Now suppose you're busting your hump at work (full respect for that) and someone else at work who works half as much as you, because they have another job, donates money for new uniforms for your whole crew - now when you're being considered for management so are they because while they don't the put the time in their donation shows that they really are invested in the business and the people - do you accept their donation as being on par with the time you put into your work? If it were me I'd feel insulted and undervalued.

To me, equal footing isn't everyone's only concern - there's also equal reward for equal effort. And in most cases I can think of, when money is spent to bypass time and effort it's just a huge insult to the people who put in that time and effort.

Rather than giving people with money and little time a fast track the game should just be designed so that skill is largely the determining factor in victory - and from my experience for far this is the case.

Message 26 of 30 (1,274 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

[ Edited ]
★★★★★ Apprentice
@rav I have seen it at six flags. It's called flashpass. For those that are willing to pay more. So that they may bypass the long waits in lines. Not really much difference. Though the gambling mechanics I'm not fond of. As you seem to get a lot of duplicate garbage. I would be all for purchasing characters that are all maxed out. As it would save me a lot of grind time. It's not pay to win. It's paying to advance. I'm all for it.
Message 27 of 30 (1,262 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

[ Edited ]
★★ Guide

 

I think we are all arguing at cross purposes and that is why we cant seem to agree (except for gambling, kaspen and I have nailed that one). There are really two issues at play here regarding advancing:

 

A) Fair competition

B) Enabling everyone to equally engage at a decent level in the game

 

@Ninfasbleak  your time to win argument at first seems compelling. But as @Ravudha points out, time and effort spent tends to be an acceptable cost to advance anywhere in life whereas paying money over others to seems wrong to people in terms of FAIR COMPETITION. It is however more than just time and this is where the argument about paying to skip a queue doesnt seem appropriate. It is both INNATE SKILL and skill gained through practice as the result of time and EFFORT that are being circumvented. It is more comparable to sports people who takes performance enhancing drugs (those are paid for too). Do you consider the latter acceptable? I doubt you would. Some players unlike me are invested in competition and therefore dislike this.

 

However, I think your argument sounds like it is founded not on the issue of FAIR COMPETITION for those who dont have the time, but rather on providing those who dont have time the ability to also EQUALLY ENGAGE with the game at a decent level for pure enjoyment purposes. This is where I am at. Money for the latter is a very compelling argument until you realise that games companies only started making things take a long time and a long grind to obtain in order to coerce people into spending money to buy them instead. Back in the day before micro transactions  there was no grind. A little effort to obtain stuff maybe, but no grind. And no one ever complained, Everyone was happy cos everyone, casual and dedicated player, could get stuff and play at a decent level, and no cash was spent.

 

Micro transactions and grind were introduced to take financial advantage of the casual player who doesnt have time. The casual player has got used to there being micro transaction and so have forgotten that they are being taken advantage of. Forgotten the days .....before the dark times, before micro transactions.

 

Basically both A and B above have been subverted by EA in BF2. The removal of "pay to win" will also mean the removal of excessive "time to win" as without the former there is no need for the latter. When I and others are arguing against "pay to win" we are also arguing against excessive "time to win" in the same breath. I think we are all on the same side. 

 

Message 28 of 30 (1,244 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

[ Edited ]
★★★★★ Apprentice
At this point I would give anything. Just to have a Sith Lord and Jedi Master that are not complete garbage and useless to use. Along with the Hvvs afk issue. Last but not least. Fix the specialist a pistol and assault rifle shouldn't do more damage or have the same range as a sniper rifle. Yoda, Darth Sidius and the specialist are a waste of time and space at this point.

Seriously the whole aposing team in Hvvs that I just joined. Is afk.....
Message 29 of 30 (1,226 Views)

Re: For those who cry pay to win

★★★★★ Novice
@Ninfasbleak

But again the grindy unlock times are there in order to make loot boxes valuable. If it was easy to unlock everything playing the game then loot boxes would be worthless.

I absolutely guarantee you it wouldn’t take as long to unlock things in this game if it had been designed as a microtransaction/loot box free game from the outset.
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